Please Tell Me About Submarines (handmade)

[Steph]

Pictures would be nice!

I'm trying to understand the mystique surrounding them. I'm not sure I quite understand all the entries in Baumann's tables of rarity but it looks like Submarines appeared in comparable numbers to similarly constructed marbles which didn't have the extra strands under the surface. Yet the prices on submarines run so much higher than on the similar marbles.

Any insight will be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Guest browse4antiques]

Submarines have a transparent matrix - usually colored, but there could be clear ones too. They will have external banding, with open panels. So first thing to realize is that the external banding has to be right on the surface like indians and banded opqaues, not cased in a layer of the matrix color, as are joseph coats. Here are two examples (not submarines). The first one has surface banding (so it's a banded transparent), and the next has cased banding (so its a colored glass Joseph coat - or perhaps colored-glass coreless swirl).

If a surface banded example also has submerged bands in the open panels, then its a submarine (like the next pic). But you will find a variety of forms of open panel cased examples that have something going on under the surface in the open panels, and many people will call them submarines as well, but they are wrong in doing so. The next example is one with a separate submerged layer in the open space between the blue, but it is cased, so not a submarine.

The misuse of the term submarine has even progressed to the point that almost any handmade with open panels and anything going on towards the core is called a submarine. ... Roger

[Steph]

Oh boy ... thank you.

i'm going to have to keep thinking about this. this is heavy stuff

[Steph]

Okay, I've thought about it!

Now I think I see the distinctions you are drawing. Yea!

So, do you think the action under the open panels adds so much dimension to the marble that it makes it that much more special than its "banded transparent" or "colored Indian" counterparts?

Or do you think it is having a neat name which explains the prices submarines command?

or perhaps a combination?

... or something completely different ...

[Guest browse4antiques]

I think it is somewhat over-rated. But it is an interesting, and distinct style of old handmade that is not encountered often, and collectors generally like to have examples of each kind. The real trick to collecting handmades is to see past the names that they are given, and collect on the basis of your own concept of beauty. Often the most beautiful ones are inexpensive because they don't have big-time labels. ... Roger

[1DanS]

Most excellent explanation Roger. And they are very hard to find.

thanks.

[I LOVE MARBLES]

Yes what Dan said.

Scott

[hdesousa]

in addition, submarines *always* have faceted pontils. Indians, banded opaques, joseph coats, lutzes, almost never.

Hansel