Jump to content


Definitions


  • You cannot reply to this topic
47 replies to this topic

#1 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 27 August 2007 - 08:40 PM

There are some words which present an ongoing source of confusion to new collectors as they find their way onto the marble boards. Every few weeks a new person will ask for the meaning again. I don't remember what all of the words are right now, but they'll come up again! And as they do, I'll try to add the definitions here.

This will get the list started:

Mib: a marble.


Common abbreviations seen on marble bulletin boards (and other places):

CA: Christensen Agate (a marble maker)
CAC: Christensen Agate Company, same as CA
** either CA or CAC could also stand for Champion Agate, and I think some might use it that way, but in my experience it has usually been Christensen
MFC: M. F. Christensen (a marble maker)
MK: Marble King (a marble maker)

NLR: National Line Rainbo, made by Peltier


imo: in my opinion
imho: in my humble opinion
jmho: just my humble opinion
fwiw: for what it's worth


iiuc: if I understand correctly
iirc: if I remember correctly

LOL: laugh out loud Posted Image
j/k: Just Kidding Posted Image


htf: hard to find
vhtf: very hard to find






For more definitions, and generally fun browsing, see: A Glossary of Marble Players' Terms, at The American Toy Marble Museum's website.






edit -- some terms found below:
  • ribbon
  • vane
  • pontil
  • broken corkscrew
  • popeye
  • egg yolk
  • dug marble
  • West Virginia swirl
  • turkey
  • buttcrack
  • citrus
  • oxblood
  • moss agates, Akro style
  • Akro Aces
  • Peltier "flip flop"
  • Diaper fold marble
  • Tank Wash marbles (link to other discussion)
  • tiger eyes




to be added:
  • pre-freese (a misnomer which has resulted in misunderstandings about dates of corkscrew production)
  • snotty, aka snot-agate, a term with earlier origins than most are aware of
  • Rainbo / Rainbow / National Line Rainbo, and variations on the name / style
  • hybrid
  • 9 and tail ... in connection with hand-gathered marbles



There are a number of mibs defined by example here: Name Game

#2 MrsMopar

    Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2,034 posts
  • Location:Western Pennsylvania
  • Gender:Female

Posted 28 August 2007 - 10:31 AM

I went to that Glossary and thanks to limits of webtv, I got to the G's and it said the page was too large to be shown completely.
Anywho, I was wondering if vane and ribbons could be explained.
Thank you :-)

#3 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 28 August 2007 - 01:40 PM

As it turns out, neither vane nor ribbon has an entry in the glossary. I think those are words from relatively common english which have been applied in a relatively normal way to features of marbles. Here's my take on them:

A ribbon is a strip of colored cloth, uniform in width, right? So, a ribbon in a marble will be a strip of color ... more or less uniform in width ... generally .... The color could be applied in a band on the surface. Or it could be a longer ribbon snaking around inside.

A vane is a blade of color as seen in the original Japanese cat's eyes. I think of it like the blade(s) in some weather vanes. I got this set of definitions from Merriam-Webster.com.

[indent]

Quote

1 a : a movable device attached to an elevated object (as a spire) for showing the direction of the wind b : one that is changeable or inconstant
2 : a thin flat or curved object that is rotated about an axis by a flow of fluid or that rotates to cause a fluid to flow or that redirects a flow of fluid <the vanes of a windmill>
3 : the web or flat expanded part of a feather -- see FEATHER illustration
4 : a feather fastened to the shaft near the nock of an arrow
[/indent] Then, I presume, the definition of vane was generalized from the sharper blade-like sections we see on Asian cat's eyes, to the less-blade like sections we see in American cat's eyes.

Ribbon might be a better name for the bands of color in a cage-style cat's eye. But they're cat's eyes. And cat's eyes have vanes. So that's what we call them. ^_^


If you pose the question again in the general chat forum, you might get another take on it ... and maybe some pictorial examples. :-)

#4 MrsMopar

    Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2,034 posts
  • Location:Western Pennsylvania
  • Gender:Female

Posted 28 August 2007 - 02:01 PM

Ok...I keep seeing this word too...Pontil..what is that?

#5 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 28 August 2007 - 02:32 PM

That one you have to ask in the main chat area. My understanding of pontils is minimal. I looked it up in the glossary and found this:


[indent]

Quote

PONTIL (Pontil Mark): noun. A glassworkers’ term; a diagnostic mark left on a hand-made / hand-gathered marble. The mark is a result of removing a finished marble from the end of a punty rod. It is necessary to further process and remove the offending mark and any protuberance left, to make the area level and smooth with the surface and make the marbles as perfectly spherical as possible. The two basic methods employed to finish a pontil are by grinding smooth as first employed by Elias Greiner in Lauscha, Germany in the 1850s, or through melting smooth with a flame, as described in US Patent No. 462,083, James Harvey Leighton. Grinding gives the finest quality finish, but is far more labor intensive than melting a pontil. Also, as described in the US Patent Classification Glass; “A dipstick used to gather charges of molten glass, punty, puntil, pontile, pontee, and ponto are local variants.” Also, sometimes the term is inaccurately used by collectors to describe the two cut-marks on a marble made from a glass cane.
[/indent]
I'd be one of the people who use the term "inaccurately". I thought it was "the two cut-marks on a marble made from a glass cane."

#6 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 14 September 2007 - 12:53 PM

Broken corkscrew is a term I've seen asked about in several places, and Marquee Marbles has a beautiful example in one of his auctions.

A broken corkscrew is a 4-ribbon Peltier National Line Rainbo marble.*

The 4 ribbons are arranged so that the first end of Ribbon #1 is free. But the 2nd end of Ribbon #1 hooks up with the first end of Ribbon #2. Then the 2nd end of Ribbon #2 hooks up with the first end of Ribbon #3. Then the 2nd end of Ribbon #3 hooks up with the first end of Ribbon #4. And then the 2nd end of Ribbon #4 hangs loose.

Though it is four ribbons, it's almost like one ribbon as you trace around from the first end of Ribbon #1 to the 2nd end of Ribbon #4. Almost like tracing the ribbon of an Akro corkscrew around from top to bottom.

Marquee Marbles' example is a "blue bee".


Posted Image



Carole also has an example which is so perfect that in her pix I could barely see where the separate ribbons joined. She has said I may use her pix, so I'll hunt that one up to post here too, unless she beats me to it.





* It has just dawned that I'm not sure broken corks are limited to having 4 ribbons. Could there be one with six ribbons ... or even eight? I think I'll take this question to the main forum.

update: the answer came back, most likely only 4 ribbons. (thanks, Dani :-)

Edited by Steph, 30 December 2010 - 03:09 PM.


#7 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 21 January 2008 - 05:28 PM

A popeye is an Akro Agate corkscrew with clear glass and white filaments, and two other colors. Collectors call it popeye because of the box it was often (usually? always?) sold in. The Akro company name for popeyes was "tri-onyx".

Here's a photograph Lloyd (Hipocritter) posted of a Popeye box:

Posted Image



It is a fact that other marbles, such as lemonades, were also sold in Popeye boxes, but these particular corkscrews are the only ones the names stuck to. (source of Lloyd's pic, and info about other marble types in popeye boxes)


Post #9 here, Mostly Pix - Akro, has some more popeye pix, including examples where yellow isn't one of the colors.

#8 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 30 January 2008 - 04:00 PM

egg yolk (draft)

This can be a tough one. Until recently I thought that egg yolk was a particular type/shade of yellow. It turns out that it is not. The term is applied to a range of yellows found in marbles which are called oxblood eggyolks. Sometimes it is applied to similar yellows in other akros. There is some controversy about when to apply the name.

It is also applied some of the yellow(s) in certain German handmades.


[space reserved for examples]


For now , here are the threads where I learned about some of the controversies and some of the answers.

For Jay ... What Exactly Is Eggyolk?
Akro Eggyolk -- Special Request

Edited by modularforms, 27 April 2009 - 03:25 PM.


#9 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 09 September 2008 - 08:28 PM

dug marble

It could be a marble which has been dug up from anywhere. However, it usually refers to marbles which have been recovered from a site known to be affiliated with a company. Such as the original Akro factory property. Or places where Marble Kings were known to be discarded.


They are more appreciated now than they once were.

Some people don't want anything they think might be dug, though there may be more dug in their collection than they know about since digging has been going on for years. One big negative associated with digging is that varieties previously considered very rare are more common now thanks to the circulation of dug marbles. That affected the market value of marbles already in collections.

One plus is that they are great to have for identification purposes. Another plus is that some rare experimental marbles which were never made in large numbers have also been found at dig sites. Without the digging we would never have known about them.



The Akro factory site digging is now finished. The site had one huge dig last year, privately financed, and now it's going to be paved over if I understand correctly. Anyway, the digging is officially over. Some of the marbles from that excavation, and some from past digs, are on ebay now.

There are also sellers who offer dug marbles from other companies. Such as Alley, Heaton, Jackson, ....

#10 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:07 PM

West Virginia swirls, aka WV swirls

Swirls, usually vintage, made by the following West Virginia companies:

[indent]
  • Alley Agate
  • Cairo Novelty Co.
  • Champion Agate
  • Davis Marble Co.
  • Heaton Agate Co.
  • Jackson Marble Co.
  • Playrite Marble and Novelty Co.
  • Ravenswood Glass and Novelty Co.
[/indent]
Alox agates are also usually lumped in with WV swirls, though the Alox Mfg. Co. was located in Missouri. Their swirl machines are said to have been purchased from West Virginia.



Bogard has also been reported as making opaque swirls, but this isn't well-known. I don't remember seeing photos of them and I haven't seen them considered in marble i.d.'s.

Mid-Atlantic of West Virginia, Inc. might qualify, but their swirls are modern, and aren't usually considered in swirl discussions.



Also, people have perhaps jokingly included certain Akros in that category. They weren't primarily a swirl company but were in WV and did make some swirls.

Champion still made marbles in the modern era but their roots are vintage.



I've also seen someone call Jabos WV swirls. Their mailing address was in WV, so maybe. lol. But the marbles are modern, and were made in Ohio.

Christensen Agates were made in Ohio.

#11 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 13 November 2008 - 06:40 PM

Turkey: A name for a CAC swirl where the swirl pattern resembles the head of a turkey. Here is Galen's quintessential example.


Posted Image
(click to enlarge)



That sort of formation happened in the swirls from other makers but the term "turkey" is generally reserved for CAC's.

Here is a marble I once owned. I haven't gotten a clear answer about whether it would be a turkey. Assuming that it is CAC, would the name turkey apply to a marble with that much transparency? What would most serious CAC collectors say about it? I don't know.


Posted Image



edit: should I have been saying "turkey head" instead of just turkey. Been calling them turkey's so long that I've forgotten how I first learned it.

#12 michaelmastro

    Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 11 March 2009 - 03:37 PM

If I'm not mistaken, isn't it "vein"?

Michael
(the New [old] guy)

#13 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:30 PM

View Postmichaelmastro, on Mar 11 2009, 03:37 PM, said:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't it "vein"?

Michael
(the New [old] guy)


Do you mean in cat's eyes?


"Vane" is correct. As in rotors with various numbers of vanes. Or a steam engine. Or a radiometer. Or a paddlewheel.


(click to enlarge)
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image



Or a paddle wheel airplane for vertical flight Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image




Posted Image Posted Image

#14 milj

    Member

  • Supporting Member
  • Pip
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Jackson, MS

Posted 30 March 2009 - 09:44 AM

What does the term butt crack mean regarding jabo mibs

#15 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:52 PM

View Postmilj, on Mar 30 2009, 09:44 AM, said:

What does the term butt crack mean regarding jabo mibs



Um, a buttcrack in a marble is a fold which sort of looks like butt cheeks. Jabos often have them. Other marbles have them too. Here's a Pelt which looks sort of like someone's gluteous maximus, no?

Posted Image


Though I occasionally use the term, I do not like it. Partly because it makes me blush. And partly because it is a mistake to judge marbles strictly or even mainly on that feature. Many errors have been made -- and many newbies have felt rejected by phrases such as "buttcracks don't lie". Buttcracks apparently can deceive. These marbles were all deemed to be Jabos when I asked for i.d. on them in 2006.

Posted Image


The jury is still out on the first, but I am inclined to believe that it is vintage. I believe #2 to be a Cairo Novelty (1946 - 1952). #3 is a Pennsboro Alley (1931 - 1937). And whoever made #4, it wasn't Jabo; that was a majorly played with vintage WV swirl.





And here's a Jabo with no crack:

Posted Image





That said, if you search for group photos of Jabos, you'll likely find a lot of BC's.

Posted Image










For fun and enlightenment, here is another thread full of cheeky marbles. Some Jabos, most not, at least as of today.

Buttcracks Please

#16 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 26 April 2009 - 10:37 PM

Peltier Citrus (space saver)

For now consult this thread, Couple More.

Some of the citrus varieties are firmly established. There is still some confusion about some. I'll try to update this when I think I've figured it out. :-)

#17 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 27 April 2009 - 03:13 PM

Oxblood


Oxblood as a color is defined as a "dark brownish red", or slightly more broadly as a "dark or deep red to medium reddish brown". It was literally named for the color of the blood of an ox; a common variation of the name is the French "sang de boeuf". It was named during a time when people lived in multi-species communities, and depended very closely on animals to supply many of their needs. They were familiar with their animals to the extent of knowing the different shades of blood of different species. Other shades of red had other names, e.g. sang de poulet (chicken blood), sang de pigeon (pigeon blood), peach bloom, crushed strawberry, crimson, liver, ....


Here are a couple of examples of oxblood I found in non-marble contexts. An "oxblood red" swatch and some glazed ceramics:


(click to enlarge)

Posted Image . . Posted Image . . (1), (2)




A few more -- another palette example, another glaze example and a much more brown example in dyed wool:


(click to enlarge)
Posted Image . . Posted Image . . Posted Image . . (3), (4), (5)


edit: a little after I gathered those I learned that there is a somewhat official definition of the color "oxblood red". One which has been cited in U.S. patents is Robert Ridgway's Color Standards and Nomenclature. So in a patent when a rose or an apple was said to be Oxblood Red, someone could consult the swatch on Plate I and know what was meant.


In the context of marble collecting, most of the time the term oxblood refers to certain opaque reddish glass found in Akros, M. F. Christensen bricks (American Cornelians), and some German handmades. MFC bought the American Cornelian formula from James Harvey Leighton, part of a famous family of glass makers and glass chemists. Akro obtained their formula from MFC by dubioius means, hence it would be fair to call MFC the standard. However, time and familiarity have given Akro this distinction.

Here are some Akro examples posted by Lloyd:

Posted Image

The oxblood in those examples is an opaque microcrystalline copper-based glass. The opacity comes from the size of the copper crystals. It is related to aventurine in a fascinating way. See Brian Graham's discussion here for more about this phenomenon, Melting Oxblood or Haematinum red glass. This glass can take on different shades, and in this era we marble collectors seem to be less precise with the names of the shades, tending to dwell on the chemical nature of the glass rather than the exact color. This makes sense, considering that these days we tend to be more familiar with chemistry labs than with barnyards.

Note: Oxblood-colored glass in this family of copper-based examples is not always opaque. In the 1800's and early 1900's there was a copper-based red glaze which was called sang de boeuf and was transparent.



This type of oxblood -- the Haematinum red glass -- is known to command relatively high prices in comparison with many other versions of red. Sellers with many different motivations are aware of this reality and this sometimes leads them to market things as oxblood which are not Haematinum. It is the buyer's responsibility to be aware of what they are buying and avoid paying Haematinum prices for non-Haematinum. Other versions can be fun and attractive, but be aware of the difference. (note: there is a version of red made with gold -- I know little about that and nothing about its value in comparison with oxblood.)


Now what about that oxblood from other marble makers? We hear of Vitro oxblood, Alley oxblood, horsehair oxblood, Peltier oxblood, etc. A key point there is that people tend to add a word on the front such as "Vitro" or "horsehair" to make it clear they are not necessarily trying to claim that it is the same as that found in classic Akro oxbloods. Some might be copper based, and some might even have been made intentionally, but be careful about assuming too much. Here are some which look like copper-based oxblood. First is a mib Gary posted which was ID-ed as an Alley, then some pelts -- two multicolors of Carole's, one with similar colors from Marblealan, and another fascinating one of Carole's. Kinda looks like oxblood might be an accidental byproduct of the chemicals used to make the turquoise glass, doesn't it?

(click to enlarge)
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image


[space reserved for more examples, inc. ones called oxblood which don't look all that close to Akro's version]


An interesting occurence of oxblood in recent years has been achieved at Jabo, at first by accident, and now on purpose. It was discovered when aventurine cullet was fed into the furnace during a tank wash late in 2007, but it was oxblood which came out, not aventurine after all. In earlier years some Jabo classics had a different type of red which some call oxblood; that is selenium-based glass.

#18 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:17 PM

Moss Agates -- Akro style (there are others)

The most famous version are patches but they can also be corkscrews or swirls.
They can fluoresce, but do have to.



Here is a sample Moss Agates box with salesman's price label affixed:

(click to enlarge)
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image


Here are some patch style moss agates in a salesman sample case:

(click to enlarge)
Posted Image



There are at least two distinct descriptions of Moss Agates found in Akro ads.

One says, "Highest quality moonstone glass, soft pastel colors, contrasted with more vivid hues in exquisite patterns ...."

"exquisite patterns" -- the ad writer wasn't holding patches when he wrote that.


Another one says, "beautiful moonstone opalescent glass in variegated colors ...." It doesn't mention the pattern. Why? Because the ad writer was looking at a box of patches. Commenting on the pattern didn't occur to him.


There is also picture evidence in ads for both kinds of moss agates.

The frustrating thing is that the pictures for one are sometimes next to the description for the other. ROFL Akro catalogs seem to be a hodgepodge of old and new bits and pieces, with lots of inconsistencies overlooked unless they were glaring.



p.s., note that "moonstone glass" does not mean the same glass as in "moonies". Opalescent doesn't either. Those were words chosen by professional ad writers doing their thing. They could have been miles away from Akro, and might have had no knowledge of the rest of the Akro line. They were just saying they best they could think of about the set of marbles in front of them. "Moonstone" had a meaning to them independent of Akro's moonie marbles.





imho. :-)




Here is a thread with patch style mossy examples from various makers: Moss Agate Or Cloudy Type Marbles, Akro, Master, Peltier, Alley, who else?

#19 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:38 PM

Akro Aces

Collectors at many levels use "Ace" to refer to a marble which Akro sold under the name Moss Agate. Specifically, to the non-fluorescent corkscrew version of Akro's Moss Agates. If I understand correctly. So, if you choose to call your "blue eggyolks" aces you will not be alone. However, I cannot do that because Akro intended the name for a different style of marble.

[Space reserved for examples of the moss-agate style of Ace]



Here is Akro's version of the Ace Agate:

(click to enlarge - big pic, might have to click twice)
Posted Image

To me the base tends to look more like that of a Pelt Acme Realer than the translucent "moonstone"-like base of a moss agate.




imho.

#20 Steph

    Moderator

  • Supporting Member Moderator
  • Pip
  • 10,367 posts
  • Location:the 44th parallel
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 23 July 2009 - 12:49 AM

Pelt flip flop


This is a pattern which has been observed on Peltier's Rainbo style marbles, from National Line Rainbos to later versions.

When the Rainbo has more than one color of ribbon, the same number of ribbons and colors of ribbons tend to show up on each side of the marble, but in reverse order.

Exceptions can occur. Also Pelt ribbons can blend, blur, shred, squish, shove, hybridize, etc. in ways which obscure the flip flop. However, the flip flop happens very often.






Examples:



Posted Image
Source: Marblealan




Posted Image
Source: Bob Block




[indent][indent]Posted Image[/indent][/indent]
Source: Splattman





Note: it also happens on opaque-based marbles! These examples just all happen to be transparent based. :-)





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users