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A Good Month For Fake China Floggers

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Just for fun, here are pics of only some of the china marbles offered on eBay in March. The first pic are those that I believe to be fake, and the second are those that I believe to be authentic. ... Roger

march-08fake.jpg

march-08ok.jpg

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Roger thanks for posting the marble pictures and keeping us informed .I have never seen a China with gold paint on it before ,very nice !Thanks Bo

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Roger, if I were running a class on china ID... You'd have just scored an A+ !!!

And, Roger please confirm.... Bo, that shouldn't be gold paint, as in gold metallic, it should be a "mustard yellow" or "antique gold." And, I'm guessing it's on the large size for a china?? It almost looks more "carpet ball-ish."

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There was a topic a while ago, about the "fake" scenic china..... At the time, I mentioned that I hate to be "absolute" in an ID.... I'm a 3rd generation antique dealer... I started working shows with my mother when I was about 10-12... I've known a lot of people and I've seen a LOT of "stuff...."

But, my grandmother (Who held the #3 Massachusetts auctioneers license) had an expression that I live by, because it's been proven to me, over and over again.................

Anyone who says they know everything about antiques, is either a liar, or a fool!!

Sooooooooo, in the above post.... Rather than saying......

"That's not gold on that china... You'll never find metallic gold on a REAL china..."

(Which is what I was thinking...)

I skirted around the "absolute" and said what I still believe to be true (Unless Lloyd comes in and says I'm wrong... And, I'm totally OK with that, too...) The color on the marble should not be metallic, but a mustard color gold....

But, Steph knows what I was thinking!!! And, I thank her for.....

1. Not publicly making a fool of me

and

2. Showing me something I've NEVER seen before!!!

In an area where I feel I'm pretty proficient.... I've learned something really awesome from someone who really isn't a newbie... But, in time and experience comparison, to me, is a newbie.....

Check this out.... Based on my knowledge of china marbles and gold applied to early china dinnerware and how it wears.... There's no doubt in my mind (Though, I always remain open for correction) that these are dead on authentic.... I have never seen, or even dreamed of such a thing.....

post-3-1206891639_thumb.jpg

Thanks Steph!!!

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Hi All,

Yep, just like a mini- carpet ball. A good antique mustard yellow color.

We have had a few China marbles with Gold on them. It is similar to the Gold edge on lots of dinnerware. The most common examples we have had are the type you (Steph) had pictured. We had one fancy multi-color 'Bennington' with a considerable amount of Gold as well as Blue, Green & Brown.

Steph is amazing, she has more facets than an antique agate shooter.

I'm Hip,

:Happy_457:

Lloyd Huffer

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Has anyone ever found out who or what has the artistic talent to do such fancy and tedious painting on such a small item.

Always curious. I too have a number of great designs.

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When my grandfather was a young boy growing up on a farm in Michigan, he sometimes made his own clay marbles as did many children in his circle of friends. Although none of the marbles I have from him have any designs on them like the ones above, it does make me curious. I wonder if any kid's that made their own marbles drew designs on them with what ever they might of had availible to them. Has anyone come across anything like that in their time as collectors? Just curious. God Bless!

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Has anyone ever found out who or what has the artistic talent to do such fancy and tedious painting on such a small item.

Always curious. I too have a number of great designs.

Great old thread to resurrect, looking forward to more......

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But what about this one Lloyd? The hobby lobby style looking ones have me gun shy now. These have wear (edit: this one here has wear) but also maybe some of the same things which looked wrong on the others.

23/32"

Click to see the seller's original size pix. (a bit fuzzy but might help with some details?)

191362198_o-1.jpg

191362340_o-1.jpg 191362256_o-1.jpg

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The first 2 look too labored- like somebody tried too hard.

The last one, even though the damage looks suspect ( could be the pics, in hand exam is best ) looks real to me. The strokes are that of a factory type artist- confident & quickly completed.

:Happy_457:

LL

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Hi Lloyd,

I've gotta strange feeling about that last one, you don't see that combination, solid bullseye with leaves etc. that much.

Most of the time it's a combination with an open bullseye, donuteye, spiral etc. I might be wrong of course, I just don't "like" that combination.

Cees.

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Some friends of my daughter's and myself have been getting together for "group china painting" gatherings... It's fun, laid back and gives us all a chance to catch up...

I've been experimenting with marble designs... My first attempt was a Popeye..... ROFL... I found that "Whispy White" and "Clear" are REALLY tough to translate onto china!!! (Duh!!)

So, I decided to go back to basic... Using small Christmas ornament blanks, I've made 4 copies of Bill Sweet's Rose Scenic, from page 23 of Marble Mania....

Since Nadine MacDonald was the first to try and imitate that marble (To my knowledge) When I saw her at the NE show last October, I gave her my first one.... She looked at it and said.... "Yeah, you found the same problem I always had... The lines are a bitch!!!"

That has always been my strongest criteria for old vs. new.... I always hesitated to say it online, for fear it would just tell the copiers where to focus. But, it seems the serious ones have gotten the idea and are working on mastering it... It's a lot tougher than it looks... Yes, there are ways (we don't need to help anyone by being detailed...) But, on such a small surface, it takes some dedication (Far more than I want to go through in a china painting studio with a bunch of friends!!!)

I can see both points on that last one... I'm not sure that design "frequency" is a very solid criteria for determination... There's a lot of "One of a Kind" types of chinas (Like the Rose, to my knowledge)

The lines are close... But also, just slightly awkward enough to raise question....

Lloyd's point is very good... getting those perfect little teardrop leaves is not an easy trick... I get the feeling it's something that comes with doing it over and over every single day for many days... Just the right amount of paint, just the right amount of pressure and just the right amount of speed, to nail it every time... One slip and it's a blob!!!

Tough call.... But, if it is new, I think I could learn to forgive it!!! It's beautiful!! LOL

My next shot is a green & black Pennsylvania Dutch style... I'm thinking of doing 8-10 different designs and making a mobile.... Just for fun!! ;)

post-3-1235668750_thumb.jpg post-3-1235668737_thumb.jpg

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These are all real pretty. I thought I would add mine to the bunch, since they are a little different.

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When my grandfather was a young boy growing up on a farm in Michigan, he sometimes made his own clay marbles as did many children in his circle of friends. Although none of the marbles I have from him have any designs on them like the ones above, it does make me curious. I wonder if any kid's that made their own marbles drew designs on them with what ever they might of had availible to them. Has anyone come across anything like that in their time as collectors? Just curious.

To answer that question.... I have seen at least one clay marble that looked to be "Homegrown."

It had been in a collection for so long, it was way too old to be considered a "reproduction / fake." But, it certainly wasn't in the same family as other known "produced" marbles, either.

On another note.... I remember reading a kid's adventure book that told the story of a couple of kids that explored caves in the rocks, at the seashore... In one of the caves, they found some piles of clay marbles... They spent the day playing and seeing how far they could throw the marbles into the ocean...

Upon arriving home, one of them found one last marble in his pocket, that he had missed...

For some reason, they broke it open (maybe he dropped it?? I don't remember...) And, there was a diamond inside!!! The punch line of the story was... Pirates had disguised the gems as "stones" or marbles and hidden them in the caves......

Should we be doing X-rays on our clays??? LOL

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I've seen a number of references to kids making their own clays in the 1800's.

One was a report of them setting a barn on fire.

don't remember running across any pirate tales yet.

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those that I believe to be authentic. ... Roger

march-08ok.jpg

Love the authentic ones, only ever seen one in hand (and a few carpet bowls)

I can see how the brushstrokes work on the leaf motifs - its the circles that get me. They are so precise I wondered if the brush is held by a vice thing and the marble is spun round on a turner in front of it. Its just that I cant see someone holding the marble whilst painting a really exact circle around the middle. Also the ones in the above pic that don't work as well are where one circle merges into another but they are not at all shakey. I am trying to imagine how the maker would move the paintbrush around the marbles making these and some way more complex circular patterns than the ones in the pic, but I can't. Have to fully appreciate them however they were made, these are not ugly like the repro/fake ones in the 1st pic.

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As noted in that 'other' thread I've been posting in for the better part of the day, I think the one at the top right here is new. Perhaps it's a Thornburgh or the work of another true and established artist. The seller of this lot does occasionally mix things up. But if no one recognizes it, then it's possible the seller made it themselves, and not as art. I think they'd be smart enough to realize it's better to let the line discontinue than to make it look too labored.

PrettySureTheseAreNew_u.jpg

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I think they'd be smart enough to realize it's better to let the line discontinue than to make it look too labored.

PrettySureTheseAreNew_u.jpg

I agree, but that is a very average example. Looks like the fakers can't produce anything good.

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I'd agree that's new... It doesn't look like it was created to be a big money maker... But, the lines are pretty good!

It's odd though... One line looks a little wiggly (The bottom single) The rest look precise...

The base color looks too yellow, too...

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It seems to me that everyone is wrapped up in whether we have fakes or originals. Let's accept the fact that some of these have a unique artistic value. We don't know how old the fakes are or what era they were painted in. As art objects some pf them are really fine.

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some of these have a unique artistic value

To who?

Not to me.

If you want to buy a New China Marble, you should buy a good one, not the crap that's being hawked around trying to fool buyers. There's more art involved in the B.S. stories of those river bottom marbles than the marbles themselves. They were not made as art- they were made to screw people out of their money. They were made specifically to screw marble collectors.

Nadine MacDonald has been hand painting chinas for years. She has become an accomplished artist with quite a following. Buy one of her marbles- that's contemporary art.

We don't know how old the fakes are or what era they were painted in

Yes, actually we do know how old the fakes are. Some of us that have been collecting for a while have been following this crap for years.

This thread, while intended to help collectors identify real marbles from fakes, has already given the fakers too many new pointers on which to ply their craft.

I'm Hip,

schultz.jpg

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