Who Used Oxblood?

[ann]

The Chinese use of a "sang-de-boeuf" copper-based glaze goes back at least to the Sung Dynasty, 12th century AD or so --

Ann

[I'llhavethat1]

Here's some what I consider to be close enough to a shade of oxblood they're kept them together. Even if they aren't. The German's may have used a softer glass since it seems like almost all have blow-outs and surface roughness, (especially seen in mine which are beat)

[MrsMopar]

Thank you ann, I'llhavethat1 and Andrea, those are really kewl! It's really good to see the variations, depth of color of each makers form of oxblood.

I am finding there is a LOT of pottery mentioned when it comes to oxblood and its other names.

[1DanS]

thanks.

[MrsMopar]

Fantastic! Thank you for showing the various oxbloods. I'm at the library right now and WOW! talk about color and depth on the pics!!! Pc's sure do make a difference in what you see.

Have a blessed weekend all!!

:-) Felicia

[MrsMopar]

I did some more reading yesterday. And, I'm thinking it's kind of like having three people make chocolate chip cookies. One person uses a readi-made mix (which a few months ago, I was told came in one gallon buckets, yuck), two make from scratch although one has ingredients that are closest to purer forms. The cookies may look the same, for the most part, but they are different.

They are all chocolate chip cookies but the difference in ingredients, heat of the oven and time baked, makes the taste and texture different.

Each manufacturer has a version of oxblood and it 'seems' that the variations have to do with ingredients, heat and conditions. There may be other variables that I just 'don't get' but I think I have begun to grasp the concept of more than one type of oxblood being used out there.

Thanx to everyone who helped in my quest to understand and become more enlightened on this subject.

Have a blessed day!

:-) Felicia

[Steph]

To your summary, I'd add this: Some of what we call a particular manufacturer's version of "oxblood" likely isn't copper-based. And even when copper-based, what we call oxblood only seems to have been made on purpose by a few marble manufacturers.

And now for the mischievous p.s. --- it seems that some of the different copper-based shades, perhaps some of those shown above?, had different names in the late 1800's or early 1900's. e.g., Chicken Blood or Pigeon Blood. From a time when people saw enough blood that they were familiar with the shades I guess.

[oldmarblenut]

Great photos!

Love the Pelts with ox, I've had a few and do consider them "uncommon" and worthy of praise.

I think the Germans were first to find true "oxblood" useful in marbles, yet I do believe they discovered it by accident.

In many cases "oxblood" coloring is actualy burnt ruby glass, red is one of the most dificult colors in glass, either copper ruby, gold ruby or selenium ruby, it is very temperature and atmospheric sensitive, making a batch of ruby glass was risky and costly, one error in the batch or the melt cycle and the glass would not be the fine ruby red they hoped for, many glass companies over the years have had to deal with this problem, many took advantage of it and a very few actualy figured out how to make it better "oxblood" and use it specificaly.

Copper is the common base ingredient, gold aventurine can burn to a very nice oxblood.

Thanks for the photo's!

[marboman]

Hey everyone,I've been meaning to get these pics up for awhile now.I believe this is a Pelt Oxblood banana with green aventurine chunks. It's hard to get a good pic of the aventurine.This looks like oxblood to me,anybody seen these? Size is 1"

[david Chamberlain]

Thought I'd toss in here that Heaton Agate made an oxblood marble. I have seen enough of them from dug Heatons

to pretty much establish that this was purposeful. Check my article on Heaton Agate on Marble Mental Board. They

look a lot like an Opaque Oxblood Swirl by Akro yet still have their own subtle character. There is practically only one

Ravenswood marble in which it is possible to detect oxblood and I only found it by happenstance. Have to take some

pics and show this sometime but my printer is still being worked on and it's brand new. Feh! David Chamberlain

[MrsMopar]

Here's the link to David Chamberlain's article:

http://marblemental.yuku.com/topic/1137/t/...n-a-Series.html

[marboman]

Well it looks like they put oxblood in six-vane cats.I took a pic outside to try and get the aventurine in the powder blue but it is light and hard to photograph.Can anyone tell me who made these.I don't have any reasearch or stats on these ,I just find em,Thanks Bo

[Steph]

Those would be the six-vane type I don't like to get too specific with. I'd just guess Asia in general. And I'd guess "after 1970", again without wanting to be commit further.

[psia-antique]

Hey everyone,I've been meaning to get these pics up for awhile now.I believe this is a Pelt Oxblood banana with green aventurine chunks. It's hard to get a good pic of the aventurine.This looks like oxblood to me,anybody seen these? Size is 1"

[MrsMopar]

I have read and re-read the posts, looked over the pictures and through a book several times and something kept jumping out at me. I pondered these thoughts:

ORANGE! hmmm..Alan showed some cullet, one looked particularly orangey, 1DanS showed some marbles which, on my tv screen looks orange. If I am reading the book right, orange was mentioned. I'm thinking perhaps as a color level of getting to that red that becomes the 'oxblood' color?

Marblemansion had a fun oxblood guessing thread and the one on the upper left 'seems' to have what it could take to be an oxblood variation, but it too has an orange hue.

Now I have seen references to 'blue blood' which I still need to look up...but are there different 'shades/colors'..like could there be orange oxblood? What other color possibilities could there be?

Granted, oxblood does seem to be more of a marble term, but is it just limited to red? Are/could there be off-shoots from that term..like with the blue blood? Is there a broader color spectrum than is generally used when the word oxblood is involved?

Well, off to try find out about this 'blue blood'.

:-) Felicia

[MrsMopar]

Well, the blue blood wasn't what I thought it would be but....via the Search Engine here, I found something fascinating.

The "Pretty enough to be Jabo" thread had made mention of red, blue, pink and purple oxblood!

First thought was ohhhhh purple and pink, man I'd love a marble with those 2 colors of oxblood!

Second thought was Mr. McCullough's innovation and creativity has brought this about.

Third thought, since these colors do exist in the Jabo oxblood family, is it not possible that in the years gone by, that orange could have been one to qualify as part of the family?

These are just thoughts and ponderings on my part, things that are a curiosity to me, that helps me to better understand what I consider the 'fascinating world of oxblood'.

:-) Felicia

[psia-antique]

..

[MrsMopar]

Fascinating! You are right, so many questions. How does one contact Mr Laub? I had thought to find out previously and got side-tracked. I believe you, Steve, had mentioned something about a transcript? I would love to be able to read that! I had tried earlier to contact Mr Graham through the Canal Fulton Glassworks site but webtv...being uncooperative, again.

[psia-antique]

...

[Steph]

In this discussion, a certain amount of precision about the context would be a good idea. Otherwise we could easily blur the terms until they are practically meaningless.

Oxblood as a color will be dark red.

Oxblood as a copper-based reddish glass might be generalized to other shades in a modern discussion. However, one thing I learned from my reading is that the people who regularly used the term oxblood in the 1800's and early 1900's would have known the literal color of oxblood. Other shades had other names.

Humans lived in multi-species communities. Animals were their servants and direct food sources. People were quite intimate with facts about their animals, down to the level of knowing different animals had different shades of blood.

[psia-antique]

Bibliographic echo also blurs the terms and will make meanings not only meaningless,but untrue.

"Oxblood as a color will be dark red."

Who said "oxblood will be dark red?" Was that someone today or the folks of yore.

You are correct that the people of yore had intimate knowledge of their animals and processing them as their food source. Blood when first "let" is bright red. It darkens as it is exposed to the air. It continues to darken until it forms a scab and that is about as dark as it will get. Which shade of blood in the darkening stage is the correct color? I think that is very open to discussion.

Who says that "oxblood" as a color has to be copper based? As I understand it, red can be made in many different ways, yet the color is still red. Yes, I know Brian said it and in context is true, but the context is changing all the time.

When you name a color, I don't think I have ever heard any intelligent person say, it can only be that color if it is made a certain way. Naming a color is defining its shade, tone, hue. It is defining a place on the color wheel. It is not a description of the process of manufacture.

[Steph]

Who says that "oxblood" as a color has to be copper based?

I do not know who said that. It was not I.

[Steph]

By the way, it turns out that at least some of the copper-based glass called oxblood in the 1800's and early 1900's wasn't opaque. This isn't any reason to throw out all our past definitions, but it's interesting all the same.

Glass chemists of the day treated the subject in a scientific way. Artisans and art lovers studied it also. Definitely no reason to haggle about the subject before we study in depth what the people who gave us the word knew.

[psia-antique]

By the way, it turns out that at least some of the copper-based glass called oxblood in the 1800's and early 1900's wasn't opaque. This isn't any reason to throw out all our past definitions, but it's interesting all the same.

Glass chemists of the day treated the subject in a scientific way. Artisans and art lovers studied it also. Definitely no reason to haggle about the subject before we study in depth what the people who gave us the word knew.

I agree that not all oxblood is opaque and so do Castle and Peterson. I believe that at least Pelt,Vitro, and JABO have oxblood that is not opaque. I will bring some of each to the Vienna show if anyone is interested.

We are not haggling. You may if you wish. I was writing to Felicia and discussing with her and then both of you.

Much of what you have posted is just quotes from your definition section in the study Hall. There can be no discussion there as it is now closed and I notice some changes made and other factual threads seem to have been dropped.

What is your intellectual response to my proposition that oxblood as a color is about defining shade, tone, hue, and finding its place on the color wheel where no manufacuring critea is needed, wanted or allowed? It is either a color or it is not? You see, I think your premise that chemists study it in a scientific way and artists use and love it agrees with what I am saying. So where is the haggling?

I think I have answered your questions.

Who said "oxblood as a color WILL BE dark red?" I am just quoting your post and words and am curiuos since it is not something I have seen before.

[Steph]

Oxblood as a color is the color of ox blood. Sometimes wet ox blood. Sometimes dry.

To widen that meaning -- as a color -- is anyone's prerogative, and it is anyone's prerogative not to adopt the expanded definition. I know that I am more of a purist than most so I shall proceed with caution in that area.

I see what appears to be an effort to expand the definition by fiat instead of in an organic way and I resist that.

Oxblood is an archaic term. I choose to appreciate it in its traditional contexts, as far as I understand them. My understanding of that is still in progress.