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"wrong" Twisted Handmades


Stefan

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One is cut from a cane and one is not. That was darn tricky! Now, if you had several types of those big boys and heated it up could you make it into canes? Of course, one reason the small ones have mostly pole to pole striping and not the end of day blotches..

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They are both cane cut marbles, and of course you could make a smaller cane out of it, maybe one worth 4-5 7/8" marbles from a 2-1/2" marble, what makes you think it was not of a cane??

When I made marbles at 2" I still made a cane just like the Germans did and most canes produce more than 4-5 marbles, I averaged about 6-8 on big cane and 8-10 on smaller cane, go ahead and weigh 3 to 4 marbles that are around 1", I'm sure it would be very close to the weight of a 2" marble.

Unless you consider a large marble somewhere around the size of a softball and weighing around 5 lbs. LOL

Large onions and large swirls all come from cane construction, it is my opinion ( and not only mine ) that clouds also came from cane, just they were the first off cane and maybe a second one cut depending on the amount of stretching to the color spots, single pontil clouds and 2 pontil clouds exist. I have always argued they were not made one at a time, it would defeat the purpose of production, something vital to the profits in any glass shop or factory.

Do you have any idea the time it would take to make 4 single pontil clouds that were just 3/4" to 1" ?? the factory would go broke fast! it takes about 10-15 minutes minimum to make one that way, so at 4 marbles per hour the factory would be paying the glass working team at a rate of 500 to 10000% of their profits!

Clouds can be found from peewee to well over 2", I guess you think the peewee clouds were made one at a time also??

I am sure that somebody here has a cloud and some onions that match in color and design. I had a few "sets" back in the day, a cloud and multiple onions with increasingly stretched colors in same design.

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I was using the term cane as one stretched from a larger glob of glass. My mistake! I completely agree that a large "cane", say 2"by8" or bigger was produced and several larger marbles are made from such cane. No argument from me, nut. Although a heck of a lot more time was spent making and rounding the large marbles than ones that could be cut with marble shears and rounded in the foot pedaled bowl. And I also believe they did do some "one offs".

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Actually the larger ones are easier to make, also the size of the marble is determined by the size of the cane. any stretching off a larger glob would destroy the design foul the colors and drastically affect the final product.

I have seen marble shears sized from peewee to over 2"

I have never heard of hot glass German cane cut marbles being rounded in a foot pedaled bowl, this sounds like a process that would also contradict production principles, can you elaborate?

They all come from a cane, I am confused by your previous answer, "one is cut from a cane and one is not" How did they make the ones rounded in the foot pedaled bowl???

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Yes, with smaller marbles that were cut with the cup shears "which I have only seen for 1" and under marbles" after separating from the cane and still semi-molten they were dropped in a bowl that was rocked back and forth with a foot pedal being pumped by the guy doing the shearing. as the marbles rolled around in the bowl they rounded. This is the process that results in the so called pull spots on a lot of small cane cut German hand mades. I believe These are the later handmades that are often not real round and have one fairly rough pontil. There are a bunch of pics somewhere that showed the process being used. I can not find them, maybe Steph can do so? I am not sure how far back the bowl was part of the process, And I was amazed the first time I saw pictures of the process. Just as amazed at the size of the grinding wheels the guys used to work the Agates round and how they layed on their stomachs doing it!

1.jpg

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The only "one off" marbles I know exist are the paperweight type and sulphides, there are 2 types of paperweight styles, one has blotches of simple frit and the other is made of milefiori cane in a paperweight style but rounded as a marble, all 3 types have single pontils.

One type that could be considered a "one off" is the end of cane where the cane has been folded over onto itself or swirled into a confusing design, they are end of cane so calling them "one off" is actually incorrect, they came from a cane, just they were the last one that most often lacked all the design features so were folded or swirled to make a marble, probably the last marble made during the gaffers shift.

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No big deal, Again we will have to agree to disagree. I really like the marbles made where one type of cane was added to the end of another and a marble got produced from two completely different canes! I believe Lee has a few of these types. Did you know the very rough marbles with frit in a + shape in them are Chinese? and some were even made into beads, just like some the German trade beads

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LOL, pull spots are from marbles placed into the annealing oven or leer that touched each other and stuck together just like the spots or eyes on Benningtons or from the carry in boy working multiple production lines collecting a group and not being careful, my gosh, if you tossed multiple hot glass balls into a bowl and rocked them around you would have one lumpy mess, also with most marbles having pull spots you will find tool marks ( two small dents )either side of the pull spot where they were separated with pinschers while still hot

By the later times the handmades actually became better not worse as you mention, they became more round with less flaws and made of finer glass, brighter colors and less bubbles in the clear etc..

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen marble shears from peewee to very large. why would anyone shape a marble using marble shears then toss them into a bowl for better rounding?

Maybe the rocking bowl technique was an experiment that they found out would not work, it would have to be one hot bowl to keep the little glass balls from fracturing from cold shock, or maybe even better, the rocking bowl technique was not for glass balls?? maybe clay or stoneware??

I have been collecting marbles since I was 9 years old, I am now almost 52, I was first exposed to hand made glass before I was 9, I live in an area where glass is our local history, I spent many many hours in the American Museum of glass reading about how things were done here in America and abroad, the ancient greek mosaic marbles could have possibly been rounded that way due to the lack of proper tools for rounding but I've never heard of the rocking bowl technique used in the German glass marble shops.

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German marble trade beads were drilled after they were cold. they were not made on a mandrel like the Chinese trade beads were.

as for the + Chinese marbles I have no clue, I do not like crappy glass products so I can admit I know very little about it and would not have wanted to know useless information that would contradict the proper glass techniques.

Yes I have seen the odd 2 types and I have my own theories on them that you would probably disagree on.

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Furthermore... It is a big deal when you make a statement that doesn't make sense to a glass worker full of historical glass facts and 40+ years experience collecting marbles then ignore the questions asked about your statements and then come up with some side tracking information in an attempt to side track the question that you have no answer for.

I will refer to somebody else's comment about you being rude and unprofessional.

Stop confusing the newbies and stick to what you know.

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Galen is quite welcome to throw his two cents in. No one's perfect but he's knowledgeable.

Galen, sorry, I'm not familiar with that process. Don't know if I've seen those pics. Not ringing a bell right now anyway.

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I will do some digging Steph. And actually Nut, I am being very sociable and keeping it very civil. Disagreeing with someone is not necessarily being rude although you have probably reached that point. The bowl in the process is a fact, believe it or not. I am not saying they were all made this way but it was used at least in one of the factories for a time and obviously only helped in rounding the marbles. It is certainly OKay with me if you do not believe it but I have seen the pictures. And actually German looking marble beads have been made in 3 ways. I am not counting wound on bead types.

http://www.tasart.com/uploads/MARBLE_BEADS_Article.pdf

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I tell ya

One thing I have noticed is people come here with firm views, minimal movement in them and get offended easy.

Furthermore... It is a big deal when you make a statement that doesn't make sense to a glass worker full of historical glass facts and 40+ years experience collecting marbles then ignore the questions asked about your statements and then come up with some side tracking information in an attempt to side track the question that you have no answer for.

I will refer to somebody else's comment about you being rude and unprofessional.

Stop confusing the newbies and stick to what you know.

Why worry about it ?

Why not spell your situation out, in-relation to your view and his comment, without your panties getting twisted. People only upset you, annoy you, if you let it happen. If you see it as bad data, correct it, explain it and smile.

It's far too easy to get offended on the internet than to shrug it off it seems, where marbles are concerned.

Galen's not rude, just combative . People whom would call him rude would, I assume, people whom have been on the opposing end of a view or discussion. Or...do you jsut take it for face value without that person giving you some point of reference ?

I mean, I am not, as the Australians say, guilty of Storm in a tea Cup, which far too many are. meaning litle things make big impacts on little people.

So, with your knowledge and understanding, educate, enlighten and enjoy...do not let a disagreement, someone's view or a side-track to avoid a question, deter you from that.

As the man said

Endeavor to persevere ...

Then again he also said

I didn't surrender,they took my horse and made him surrender

have a good one ~

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I think it is because you dislike being questioned or cornered or your opinion questioned with aggressiveness.

I like you either or,so whatever the reason,it's easy enough to see,understand and decide if a person is or is not ok with it...i am ok with it :)

Now

Give me some damn Spidermans

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I apologize for not being clear enough with my responce. I thought I had answered when I said I believed some of the larger marbles were one Offs and acknoledged the fact that a large 'cane" was used to produce many good sized marbles and my mistake was in only thinking of stretched globs as "canes". I did not want to run the same subject into the ground so I changed direction for more discussion, not to side step anything. PM me about the Spidermen.. I could probably part with a few.. I started a new thread for you Gnomey

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Oldmarblenut.....to get a link to post, just click on the very first icon in the first row of the toolbar...it sort of looks like a tall rectangle inside of a square. Then do your copy and paste and the link will show up in your post..

Galen, there is a difference between watching, doing a few amateur attempts at a seminar, and actually being a part of a production crew in some of the best glass companies around. Oldmarblenut really knows what he is talking about. I taught ceramics for 15 years and held and taught seminars and you quickly learn when you hire a seminar teacher, whether they know their stuff or whether they have been taught and are passing on someone else's mistakes. I know that it is a different industry, but you learn how to judge when someone is a professional or not. When I hear explanations as clear and concise as oldmarblenuts, it is just so obvious that he is a professional glass maker of the highest degree. I have made lots of mistakes about marbles, but when I do make a mistake, I admit it. Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous, because it can lead you to conclusions where you would not go otherwise if you had the entire package of knowledge about a subject.

Had I not read oldmarbblenuts explanations, I would have thought that your logic worked, but, when you hear from a professional that a scenario like what you describe just would not have been practical, I have to go with him. His explanations about how the process works just blows everything else out of the water....even if it does in the beginning sound plausible, it just does not meet the test of a working situation that needs speed and efficiency in order for everything to run smoothly based on the tools that a crew works with and the set up of the working area.

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Manylittle, I am just giving my opinion, and it is plausible. This was a simple discussion on left handed twists and why there are so few. I gave an opinion, Nut gave his experienced in glass work opinion. fantastic, that is all, maybe someone will want to agree maybe some will not, Maybe some will even test my theory by twisting some clay canes with both hands and see how they twist. Or ask a left handed friend to twist a rope or clay cane and they will see there is some validity to my idea. I have seen many pictures and patents of old marble works, drawings and photos. I do a lot of research on marbles. As for this subject maybe many more folks will want to believe it has nothing do do with a left handed person. That is Okay with me. Now, do you think nut would have posted even part of what he did had I not stated my opinion. Probably not, that is what discussions are for. I am happy he posted, you have to understand that. I also do not need to win any arguments to feel fulfilled. So please state your opinions on subjects about marbles but do not tell me or anyone on the board how when or where to post, it is not your job, thank you. If I am nasty or rude to you please let me know, it is not my intent.

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