What Do You Know About Larger Wv Swirls?

[Steph]

Nifty bag.

[Nantucketdink]

Blue and green on a white base is not a known Heaton color. That doesn't eliminate Heaton as the maker, but it isn't a known marble by them. It is the most distinct of the combos I have found in these bags. I think I only found 4 or maybe 5 of these Bogard bags that have swirls in them too so far. This is a worthy tangent. You would imagine someone who knew Jack Bogard might clarify whether they did or did not make some simple white based swirls or not.

[Nantucketdink]

Anyone want to call Jack B and ask?

[Steph]

Blue and green on a white base is not a known Heaton color. That doesn't eliminate Heaton as the maker, but it isn't a known marble by them. It is the most distinct of the combos I have found in these bags. I think I only found 4 or maybe 5 of these Bogard bags that have swirls in them too so far. This is a worthy tangent. You would imagine someone who knew Jack Bogard might clarify whether they did or did not make some simple white based swirls or not.

American Machine-Made Marbles says they made opaque swirls, but attributes that information to Dennis Webb (and says no individual Bogard swirls had been identified as such). It seems a little out of line with what is said in the main text of the Bogard chapter. So where did Webb get the information? Was it from seeing what was in bags, or was it from talking to someone who worked at Bogard.

And heck, isn't Jack Bogard still alive? He certainly was when AMMM was written.

Anyone want to call Jack B and ask?

Yeah, do that!

Edited October 12, 2015 by Steph

[Nantucketdink]

No phone call for me. I hate calling people I don't know. Maybe someone who knows him would ask.

[venwood]

Give me a number and what you want me to ask him and I will call him.

[venwood]

bump

[Steph]

I don't know the number ....

The question would be whether Bogard made opaque swirls. (or any swirls)

[Nantucketdink]

If Dennis Webb said they did in a book, Johnson et al paraphrased they did in a book, and I have found some in factory bags including a color combo previously not IDed as Heaton in any literature, I personally would tend to believe they made a few very simple opaque white based swirls. I can't positively ID Heaton swirl patterns even though I have a few hundred dug examples. I haven't spent enough time studying them. Maybe I should... a call to Jack would be helpful if he clearly remembers one way or another. Somebody at Bogard could have easily spent a day trying to make swirls that was forgotten too. People's memories about marble production are not always perfect.

[sissydear]

^{I would argue that JABO are WV swirls. While the factory is located in Ohio, the main man and his crew were West Virginians who learned their craft in WV.}

[Ric]

In my mind, WV Swirls are vintage marbles, which were intentionally made as swirls at a WV company. I would not consider JABOs to be WV swirls any more than I would consider CAC or the occasional Akro or MK swirls to be WV swirls. But that's just me . . .

[Steph]

In my mind, WV Swirls are vintage marbles, which were intentionally made as swirls at a WV company. I would not consider JABOs to be WV swirls any more than I would consider CAC or the occasional Akro or MK swirls to be WV swirls. But that's just me . . .

Do modern Champs get grandfathered in?

Or do Champs have a dividing line based on age?

[Ric]

I just qualify particular Champs as 'newer' or 'new old-fashioned' WV Swirls, since Champion was pretty much in continuous operation in WV since the vinitage era. Mid-Atlantic made newer WV Swirls too. Sammy's are just new, I suppose. I haven't really thought much about a hard cut-off date, where I would start to qualify the phrase WV Swirl with 'newer' or "new" but I could probably come up with a couple if I cared more about it.

As far as big ones, Alley made plenty up to 1", and perhaps a few bigger. Cairo, Champion and Heaton up to about 3/4", maybe a few 7/8". Ravenswoods over 11/16" (3/4"-7/8") are uncommon, if I am not mistaken (ignoring the Paul Bunyans).

[Ric]

50countbogardbag.jpg

Whether or not these are legit Bogard swirls in the bags can be a mystery, but I like to believe they are Bogards. There are only a few different ones.

Is there a folded seam up the other side of that bag? I don't see one in the pic.

[wvrons]

Jack definatley packaged a lot of left over Heaton marbles. He possibly could have made some opaque swirls. But none that i am aware of or can seperate from Heaton. I doubt that a phone call to Jack would prove anything. It was a long time ago and a lot of marbles past. Jack was never fond of making swirl type marbles.

I think the bag is original. I believe that i also see some cat eye style marbles that might be Heaton.

[Nantucketdink]

These 50 count Bogard bags are not the ones that have the Bogard labels stapled over the Heaton labels. I have obtained a few of these ones that include swirls, each time from a completely different source and positively believe them to be headered at Bogard. I only find them in the 50 count bags and imagine they were all packaged at the same time because the mix is similar among the bags. I am sure others who have bothered to try to collect Bogard marbles in any real way at all must have some of these bags with the swirls in them. I opened all of mine, but do have them stored together and kept the opened bags. I don't remember the bag seams off the top of my head and it would take some work to uncover all of them from my stash. I think I am going to try to dig them out to see if there are Heaton cats mixed in or not. Didn't take note of it but I should.

[Ric]

I think the swirls and some of the Cat's Eyes look like they could be Heatons too.

[ann]

I think the term "WV swirl" came into use in the days before we had sorted out some characteristics of the vintage marbles from different (WV) companies.

Once we became more and more able to ID certain types as "Cairo," "Alley," "Bogard," "Ravenswood," etc,, the term "WV swirl" remained useful (as it still does) only for those remaining swirls that can't be pinned down to any one company.

I don't think the term should be applied when we know the marble's maker, like Champion, D.A.S., etc. No point, really We don't need a "catch-all" for them - - -

JMO .

Don't know nuttin about no big WV swirls. Just big Alleys.

[Nantucketdink]

I think the swirls and some of the Cat's Eyes look like they could be Heatons too.

Many of the single color 4 vane Bogard cats are indistinguishable from the Heaton single color ones. I can't tell the difference. Do some people believe Bogard didn't make any of the 4 vane cats they sold? Who believes they have a decent list of known Heaton multi colored cats eyes? Who believes they have a decent list of known Bogard multi colored 4 vane cats? Please share them.

[Steph]

I am confident that Bogard made standard cat's eyes.

[Nantucketdink]

This blister "looks" like Heatons too, but I think these were made by Bogard. Sure Bogard made a couple of runs of very distinct funky cats with unusual structures, but I also believe they made a bunch of 4 standard 4 vanes that look just like Heatons, but there are some different color combos.

[ann]

Many of the single color 4 vane Bogard cats are indistinguishable from the Heaton single color ones. I can't tell the difference. Do some people believe Bogard didn't make any of the 4 vane cats they sold? Who believes they have a decent list of known Heaton multi colored cats eyes? Who believes they have a decent list of known Bogard multi colored 4 vane cats? Please share them.

I guess I wandered off for a minute. Heaton cat's-eyes? Where did that come from? Do we know what Heaton cat's-eyes look like? If so, I surely would appreciate the info. And photos.

And anyhoo, since Bogard's tanks and machinery were Heaton's tanks and machinery, is this a distinction anyone thinks they can make?

I haven't opened my bag:

[Nantucketdink]

Sure we know what Heaton cats look like. They are mostly clean structured 4 vanes. For accuracy purposes, they have been dug and located in original factory bags. I also have a few of the original Heaton factory bags that had the Bogard labels stapled on top. Those ones frequently have some very nice ones in them. I think that suggesting that Heaton cats are mixed in with the Bogard cats in the same bag makes it easier for people to dispel the possibility that Bogard actually might have made some simple opaque white based swirls. Would anybodyelse besides me be happy if they found out Bogard did actually make a few swirls?

[Steph]

Sure. That would be cool to learn.

[ann]

Can you post a photo of one or two cats that you know are Heaton? Or a Heaton bag with cats in it? Or both? I think I know the clean-structured ones you're talking about, but I have always assumed they were all Bogard. I don't remember ever seeing Heaton bags. Maybe Al will wander by too.

I've heard too that Jack Bogard didn't much care for swirls, so yep I'd be interested to find out that he made some. Stands to reason that they'd be very plain -- the ones in my cat bag sure are.

In the couple of Mountaineer blister packs I have, there are also ones I've seen called "green onionskins." I wouldn't use that term though. More like a transparent colorless marble with green filaments near the surface in one area, as best as I can remember.