hdesousa

As far as origin goes, here is the only antique German marble I've seen, where the probable maker is known.

This marble (1 13/16" or 46 mm) was recently bought from a 60 year old, who said her grandfather, Fritz Greiner-Perth, made the marble in Kühnertshütte, Lauscha.

Those flower ones with single outer bands and the cross band ones with leaf pattern are more interesting and beautiful than any I have seen in real life or a pic. Are they yours? Can you say more about their origin please?

As far as having a documented origin, these marbles were found in an old porcelain factory in Effelder-Rauenstein, less than 10 miles from Lauscha, as the crow flies.

Google maps: Effelder-Rauenstein

Those flower ones with single outer bands and the cross band ones with leaf pattern are more interesting and beautiful than any I have seen in real life or a pic. Are they yours? Can you say more about their origin please?

I asked Steph to post these pics for me, since, as you say, they are not seen much in real life nor in pics.

They are all antique German chinas.

Color was painted/drawn on the surface of a pre-fired ceramic marble and then the marble re-fired to form a permanent (i.e. gently washable, not faded by sunlight) design. Some designs are painted onto a pre-glazed marble e.g. the elaborate flowers and checker-board marbles; the designs on most the marbles pictured are on an unglazed surface and left as such, and other marbles have been reglazed and refired, so that the design in under the glaze (e.g.the King's roses).

Although chinas with designs on a glazed surface are generally from the 'late' period, some, such as the marbles pictured here and the 'scenic chinas' are probably some of the oldest and rarest chinas known.

I looked very carefully at those two boxed marbles before the auction and could not convince myself they, nor the labels, were old. But remember, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence(of age).

Yes, my guess is also that's from China and made around 1920-1930, that's why the pontil is differet than on German marbles.

Have you ever seen another two pontil marble from China?

I have found that almost anything can take the lines off some unglazed lined chinas. It is almost like they used watercolors for the paint. some are fairly hardy and can take soapy water. First, do a very small area first with a q-tip would be my suggestion

Correct. The 'cheaper', more porous chinas seem to have been painted with watercolors. Perhaps dry-cleaning would work :-). Testing first with a Q-tip is an excellent suggestion. But the design on better unglazed chinas are fired into the surface, and these chinas can stand a gentle thumb rub with plain warm water or with even some added hand soap. Occasionally I've felt brave enough to use a soft tooth brush. For more resistant dirt and stains, a soak in 40% hydrogen peroxide (from a hairdressers' supply) is what ceramic restorers use, leaving the item covered in wet paper towels overnight in a lukewarm oven.

I've killed a really nice china in an ultrasonic cleaner; knocked off most the color, but that may have been because the marble was rattling around in the tray while being cleaned.

Important to remember that the enemy of good is better. Best not to over-clean.

Attached are some 'after' pics; cleaned with hand soap, warm water and a gentle brushing.

Here are the 'before' pics:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=350447242764&si=98kKEEV3aWbCgFVgNlKI52hQOpw%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

They did use Gutta Perchas on game boards. They also have the same interior look of some Gutta golf balls. I would probably give odds on a bet they are made of gutta percha.

When you say they used gutta percha on game boards, are you relying just on the looks of the inside of the marble, or do you have additional information?

The reason I don't think mine are gutta-percha is because, even given reasonable leeway for measurement error, this one has at a density of 1.4 gm/ml, and gutta-percha (at least the stuff dentists put in teeth) has a density of around 1.0.

Perhaps we are dealing with two types of marbles.

Anyhow, since you have an already damaged marble, how about putting it in hot water to see of it becomes malleable?

"Gutta-percha is the evaporated milky juice or latex produced from a tree most commonly found in Malaysia. It is hard and non-brittle and becomes soft and impressible at the temperature of boiling water. Gutta balls, were handmade by rolling the softened material on a board."

http://www.thedesignshop.com/history.htm

I'm still waiting for SYND to get back to me...

I could have an analysis completed if you don't mind it being cut. Seeing as I am a Quality Manager at a world known plastics company, I could send it out to be tested. Let me know if you are serious. If it is plastic I can tell you what it is, if not plastic then no report will be created as the lab is only for plastic analysis.

SNYD

Perfect! An offer I can't refuse.

Please send me your contact information and I'll email you pics before sending the marble.

Would it be possible to send back what's left of the marble?

regards,

Hansel de Sousa

[email protected]

First one got here. Super condition. At 3/4- it is the smallest I have had.

These have been called gutta-percha or paper mache marbles for as long as I know, but they are not made of either material. Gutta-percha is a rubber like compound, specific gravity (S.G.) of around 1. Paper mache is even lighter and probably somewhat fragile.

These marbles are cold, hard and robust, like bakelite, except more dense. I have one that has had some paint chipped off, and the base is jet black. It is 22 mm in diameter and weighs 7.7 grams, which gives it an S.G.of 1.4. Bakelite is 1.25.

Anyone have any good ideas on how to figure out what this marble is made of? I would offer it for a "destructive" analysis, if necessary.

Thanks.

Hansel

I sure believe so. And if I remember correctly you have some boxes of those type slags.

OK, I'll look and report back.

Hansel

Everything looks just like they should be if CACs to me.

Galen, are CAC slags, at times, seamless?

Hansel

thanks for the responce on this hansel.but i do, and still think a statement should have come out long before people spent big $ on these. as have many warnings been put out on the boards. and, for me, there is no " elites" on the boards. it's supposed to be a community situation for the benefit of all. sure, people get taken left and right, because of .. whatever ... uninformed .. ignorance ... deception .. but when there's a chance to head this off, it should be taken. period. responsibility, hell yes, ... people need to know a train's coming ... i just bought some .. i don't know's .. but i do know they are vintage. not new. no tricks involved there. and the spoon-fed comment .. kinda condensending don't you think ??? i guess it's buyer beware

especially from .. whom .. bill

Bill, I don't intend to sound condescending. Fact is, based on the number of collectors I know and the number of them who frequent marble boards, a *very small* fraction of marble collectors would be alerted to any warnings posted here. Many feel there is too high a "noise to signal ratio." Expecting someone to post warnings of fakes on the boards makes you sound somewhat of an elitist who wants to be spoon-fed. Again, no insult intended.

I don't know of a really good way of disseminating marble information.

BTW, how many of you think this is an old German marble?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250474913795

Looks too good to me, but I have no other information on it. Anyone know for sure?

regards,

Hansel

my point was and is .. a comment about this from the people involved .. not supporting comments ... would settle alot of what has been said here. getting somebody to speak for you don't stop speculation. stepping up would. stones aren't being thrown here, but being aware that these were out there, and who was involved, would, if nothing else, saved a couple of people some bucks. alot of bucks ... i gave that bird a look also. educate urselves is the first rule .. but a heads-up would be nice also. done on this. bill ....

Bill,

What makes you think my announcing in this forum that an eBay sulphide is new, would have prevented the high bidders from bidding?

When this batch of sulphides was made, some 4 to 5 years ago, I had several sold on eBay as new. That's about the biggest audience of marble collectors I know of.

The colored glass eagle sulphides were amongst them, but not commissioned by me.

What I had done, was to ask a friendly marble maker in Lauscha to obtain some miniature coin sulphides for me, which at the time were being sold on eBay as antique, and for big bucks. My friend did know the maker, who apparently was unwilling to sell them directly to me. So my friend made me a few, including some of his own design (the eagle amongst them), all of which were sold on eBay as new, and at a loss.

A continual heads up would be nice, but how should it be done? Here on the boards for an elite few?

Who should have warned the high bidder of the $20 cork that just sold for $260 on eBay?

Who should have warned the grandmother I saw pay $25 at a local flea-market this weekend for a 1/2 pint of ordinary Jabos?

Or the collector who invested some $100,000.00 in Christensen exotics and was turned down years ago by Danny Turner of (the old) Running Rabbit when he wanted them resold?

Did the people (which includes me) who spent tens of thousands on California sulphides ever consult the article in Antique & Collectors Reproduction News (June 1994)?

Ever hear of the collector who killed himself some some 10 years ago when he found out he wasted a fortune on John Deere marbles?

Most of us have been burned; some worse than others.

Sure, we'd all like to be educated, but contrary to what they may have taught you from kindergarten on, you'd better learn to do it yourself - no one is going to continually spoon-feed you.

Hansel

Andrea,

I'd look at price of a fridge and say wow just think of the great marbles I could buy instead.:-)

Bill

Exactly the way I feel!

One of the biggest marble spenders I know from the 1980's and 1990s, Dan Halstead, removed the light bulb from his fridge so as not to unnecessarily increase his electricity bill. I suppose I'm the same way.

This particular marble is illustrated in Marble Mania (pg 80 and 84) and in Bob Block's "Collecting Early Machine-made Marbles". pg 28. It last sold privately(I'm told) for around $3500. It's been up on eBay before; if I remember correctly, reserve of around $2000 not being met. So the current sale price is a 'bargain', but over the years, someone lost the price of a nice fridge.

So my no-brainer-can't-lose advice (remember, free advice is worth the price) is to buy a couple pounds of Jabo Eagles from Smitty (who will give you a great wholesale rate), then nicely ask Jo to email you pictures of the dozen or so varieties of Eagles, and you can have great fun the rest of this winter sorting out your marbles while you food stays cold on the back porch.

Hansel

The newer Jabos are not made as playing marbles. Comparing them to earlier machine made marbles is like comparing toy guns to real guns. Sure, a plastic water pistol can be made a whole lot prettier than a Smith & Wesson, but what's the point of comparing them?

The only attributes worth comparing between a collectors' Jabo and a glass toy marble is:

1. Roundness

2. Quality of glass

3. How much money can be made

Jabo's don't win in the first two categories. Anyone have figures for the last category?

Hansel

in addition, submarines *always* have faceted pontils. Indians, banded opaques, joseph coats, lutzes, almost never.

Hansel

Couple of my best. What do you think about the quadrant flower China?

That's one if the prettiest designs I've seen on a china.

American Machine Marbles book states that John Early developed the 'adapter' (spiiner cup) between 1928 and 1930 - that would be for the corks so the tiem frame fits.

Best not to rely on unreferenced sources. Should not keep perpetuating marble collector/author myths indefinitely.

We know (from that jobbers' list) that Akro was probably not selling corks 1 July 1929, and by 1 May 1930 the prizename competition was over. Can anyone reliably narrow down when Akro first marketed the corkscrew?

Fall of 1928 was the start of production according my research.

And the source for this research is........?

(Akro's 1 July 1929 Confidential Jobber's price list does not mention spirals nor prizenames.)