Steph

If you click on your name on the left side of the page, you should get an option to "find member's posts". That'll get you to 'em. :-)

I agree with both of you guys, Bo and Alan.

I don't want to define oxblood out of meaning. I totally want to stick with the "fairly well acknowledged" use of the word. That's why I stood my ground in that heck-acious thread the other day. Mostly "everyone" knows what marble collector's oxblood is. There are other traditional uses of the term but for marble collecting when newbies are asking what oxblood is, they're trying to learn to identify Akro's version.

But there are still people who use the word in other contexts, and as long as care is taken to make the context clear, I have no problem with that. Few people seem to want to say "Vitro oxblood" is "real" oxblood. But some people do still say "Vitro oxblood" and it is not my desire to say they are wrong. I just sit with the other newbies to middle-bies in the pews hoping to learn what they mean by that.

p.s. As far as the purple oxblood, in marble terms it's less of an expansion than saying that certain brick reds are oxblood. That Jabo glass is chemically kin to Akro's version. But the whole galdarned mess can be sidestepped if people will use adjectives well and leave the unadorned name "oxblood" for the accepted standard as seen in Akro and MFC.

p.p.s. I think taking the non-expansionist route might rule out the heroes. Aren't they an Akro red, but not what the 95% call oxblood? I'm not sure, not seeing that red in hand, but I don't remember hearing of oxblood thrashers before.

something red that is not oxblood but kinda sorta close - is that it?

Yup.

That could include some non-akro versions of 'oxblood'.

It would be cool to see them without arguing about "why is that less oxblood than akro's version". By using "non-haematinum", I hoped to step around that argument. Hoped that anyone reading this site recently would also have read Brian Graham's page here, Melting Oxblood or Haematinum red glass, and thus would know what I meant.

Quick note re: hematin. Haematinum red is different from that. The active metal is copper not iron. There are other terms which could have been used, such as haematinone.

But yup, that's what I meant -- "not oxblood but kinda sorta close".

I am also still confused about the origins of the "Asian" marbles and the "Shanghai" marbles - who is discovering them, (you said they were "dug" in Shanghia- but not by who)-- and what is their age---maybe I am confusing the 2.

Steph you wrote back something about House of Marbles marketing them...but the ground pontils indicate vintage stock and handmade origins - although I know of the Chinese handmades that Marble Alan was promoting years ago had rounded pontils - are these similar in origin? In other words are they recent contemporary handmades?

I mentioned House of Marbles when you asked about Asian corkscrews. My answer was an "if I'm thinking of the right marble" reply. This is the marble I was thinking of. Pic from Land of Marbles:

The marbles dug in Shanghai are a mystery. I posted about them awhile back. They were bought by an American antique seller who goes to Shanghai periodically and buys them from a digger. Here is the first set I posted. P.s., they are in better shape than they look -- the scanner gave them a glare. None of the slags here has a ground pontil. One of the white ones MIGHT but it's unclear. It looks altered somehow but half-heartedly. And these have the reverse 9's, so I'm not putting the purple one with them, even though there are some similarities in the pontil.

The typical Japanese transitionals are this type. Japan was exporting marbles in the 30's and there's reason to suppose these were among the type they were exporting then. They have spidery "pontils". From Marblealan auctions:

(click images to enlarge)

Agreed, oxblood is a shade of red. Blood is red! !! what else?!!!! lololol

However, I cannot resist the usual disclaimer: If qualifiers are used judiciously (or implicitly understood), I'm not going to argue when someone uses the name "oxblood" for non-standard examples. I believe the purple here in Windy's photo is derived from aventurine, in the same way as red oxblood. So I will not argue when it is called "purple oxblood".

Why is it purple? I don't know. Does it have a blue "contaminant" blending with the copper based glass? Or is it some "ionic" thing? Or what? Whatever the cause, I'm not going to argue with the description "purple oxblood" when Edna uses it to describe the family. (Is this a Hardcore?)

Here are a couple of provocative examples of mine which once upon a time I wished were ox. Now I just want the 2nd one to be understood because it's WEERD!

The first is 13/16". click for larger images.

The 2nd is 5/8".

In both cases, at least some of the red seems opaque at least some of the time but it is transparent or translucent and in some views looks very plain. The 2nd case is especially weird. The red is like a gel. A glistening gel which is hovering in the matrix. How it appears seems to depend on how the light hits it.

What are your favorite non-standard (non-opaque and/or non-Haematinum) ox-ish reds in the generally brick-like range?

Almost hate to post a nickel marble after those, but .... well anyway I was looking for a different oddball when I ran across this one, my single seam bumblebee:

No, I haven't learned more about the type of dump it was. Obviously more evidence is needed all around. The Shanghai lead might turn out to be a deadend, but it's a lead nevertheless and shouldn't be dismissed without cause. The similarities between the marbles in the Shanghai group, as a group, are compelling to me, and how that mysterious line pontil type fits into the continuum of pontils in the Shanghai group is intriguing. I say "mysterious" about the pontil, because as of the time of the writing of the pontil page at the Akronmarbles site, it was still a mystery and I'm not aware that the mystery has yet been solved. Also worth noting is how the color on the example of the one at the Akronmarbles page fits Chinese colors. The reverse 9's are pretty interesting too. (which of course my purple one doesn't exhibit, darn it)

Jabo sure made some nice lavender. These are the glowing sort:

Is this from Fenton cullet?

The first marbles I bought for myself were Jabos and heavy in lavender. Might have been the same run as your box, Bill, which Winlock is selling. I remember all those colors represented, plus a cool caramel-looking mib, and I think maybe a red, white, blue and brown. mabye. ?

It's not for sale. It is only a fragment of a marble in any case.

It was excavated by archaelogists. The paper to which I linked is a scholarly work published by the Canterbury Archaelogical Trust. It was part of their annual report 10 years ago.

Title and author -- Losing your marbles: Post-medieval gaming marbles of pottery and stone from Canterbury excavations, by John Cotter

There does not appear to have been any untoward agenda in proving anything about the marbles. Sometimes marbles are used to help date archaelogical sites. In this case, the author seemed to be going in more of the reverse direction, and was trying to learn more about the marbles in their own right. At this point in time in England apparently there was some thought that the marbles had been made in England and the author is making a case for them being imported.

The opening paragraphs of the article:

Over the past twenty years small numbers of gaming marbles have turned up on excavations in Canterbury. Excavations at Nos 1-2 Best Lane have produced a collection of sixteen stone and ceramic marbles from well-stratified post-medieval contexts thus prompting a more serious look at this relatively neglected class of artefact. The pilot study presented here is based on a collection of seventy-two marbles currently available for study, from eight sites around the city. It does not include those examples in the Canterbury Museum; hopefully these will be included in a future more detailed survey.

The writer has the growing suspicion that some, or perhaps most, of the marbles could be foreign imports, particularly as we have documented references to imported marbles during this period. The problem is that no attempt seems to have been made, as yet, to distinguish foreign from home-produced marbles found on British sites. The Best Lane discovery provides and ideal opportunity to make a start tackling this problem and also an excuse to overview the wider significance of gaming marbles in general. Those from Canterbury will be considered below in the order of the material they are made from.

I take the "well-stratified" qualifier to indicate that these marbles were from old levels of the site, identified levels, and not tossed willy nilly into the area in the way Jabos were tossed into the Jackson site.

Sue, I wouldn't have made the connection between the Pennsylvania Dutch and this one, but now that you mention it, the semicircles at the equator do look very much alike.

Here are a couple of items I've already posted elsewhere. They belong in this thread too.

This is a great article from Pic magazine. July 1939. At this point Pink apparently still considers the Scripps-Howard tournament to be the national tournament. That's the one he donates a college scholarship to. He has already involved with local tournaments then but I do not think they were named after him yet.

(click to enlarge)

. .

. .

In 1941 a newspaper announcement for Pink's tournament mentions Ruth Lapham, the cutie from the last photo, in order to encourage girls to enter. But according to a Coronet magazine piece in 1946, Pink "goes white" at the thought of girls playing. Marbles had survived for ages, but a girl winning the national title might bring it all down, he says.

I'll leave you to analyze the rest of the article ... or just enjoy it.

And here is a1940 flyer published in connection with the Marble King tournament at the World's Fair, discussing his past tournament involvement, the design of the trophy handed out in 1940, and tying everything to 1941 sales.

(click to enlarge)

Large print version of the page 3 (684 kb)

I first posted that flyer in Dinkybus' thread about his Marble King trophy. That is the thread which got me hooked on this stuff:

Marble King Trophy, Berry Pink Tournament Item

Alley made dishes.

Yeah, it's fun to have one's efforts made fun of.

Sorry I didn't get that. I'm just slow on the uptake.

Here ya go. I'm laughing. haha :icon_lmao:

-steph

right wing extremist

Here's some of my yellows, including a Vitro Horseshoe Cat from the infamous Steph (heh, heh).

This one sports some yellow. Brighter than the pic shows.

Here's a mystery mib of mine. For the longest while I thought it was ceramic or paper mache. (lol ... I was confused with Gutta Perchas) Now I realize that color is painted on, like latex housepaint.

I've seen one other like it ... and no one recognized that one either.

What unsolved mysteries and general oddballs do you have?

Here are a couple of examples of oxblood I found in non-marble contexts. How well do they fit with what you are picturing?

. . (1)

. . (2)

Late additions ..... another palette example, another glaze example and a much more brown example in dyed wool:

(click to enlarge)

. . . . . . (3), (4), (5)

What is red? I've never been quite sure. My mother knew it as an artist but I couldn't keep it straight. This is what the computer thinks is red:

RED

Do you mean that should be in oxblood?

Funny thing about red ... I think clinical tests have shown that what males tend to consider "true red" is different from what females tend to consider "true red". Or maybe the test was about what males considered the best shade of red being different from what females tend to be attracted by. Like the red which would appeal on the most visceral level and help make a sale.

Funny thing about the black, I have been under the impression that most oxblood does not contain black. Once upon a time I heard that what we perceive as black is actually transparent green. Alan's post in that other oxblood thread might be the first time I heard anyone say that both green and black were possible.

These were dug in England. I think the one with the star is being called Pearlware. The dimension looks odd because less than half the marble is there. (pdf source, 1.16 MB)

Marbles are frequently mentioned in archaelogical articles. Supposedly they can be used to help figure out the date of other items in the site.

Here's an article which might make some reference to that, but from my quick skim it seems that that author might just be learning about marbles, not learning from them. Still looks interesting.

Losing your marbles: Post-medieval gaming marbles of pottery and stone from Canterbury excavations

address: http://www.canterburytrust.co.uk/annreps/pdfs/1998/005.pdf (1.16 MB)

Hosted by the Canterbury Archaelogical Trust Ltd. site.

Some of the mibs under discussion:

[space reserved for other archaeology articles]

The Far Eastern Economic Review, several years

Not entirely online, but snippets at Google Books enabled me to learn that Hong Kong built a marble factory in 1954, and it was used to make cat's eyes, which were described as "transparent marbles with colour-core".

That was from an article entitled "The Glass Marble Industry of Hongkong" in the 1956 edition.

I saw some vaseline glass frogs ONCE, and only once that I recall -- those I would love if I had the chance to get them -- do yours by chance glow, Brian?

The inventors of "the" marble machine include at least

• Martin Christensen
• Berry Pink
• Art Fisher
• Clinton Israel

That is, according to various reports. There might be others. There have been so many that I've lost track.

The reports aren't just saying that they invented one type of machine. They out and out mean THE machine. A 1970 article about Vitro says Art Fisher founded Vitro in the 1930's after inventing his machine and before he came along glass marbles were made by hand.

Same story with Israel. Before he invented the first automatic machine in 1926, marbles were handmade. This was reported in 1959, in a very nice full page article which identified Israel as "West Virginia's Marble King".

Charles Turnbull is said to have designed and built most of Ravenswood's equipment but I don't see him credited with starting it "all".

well, I thought I was done with the cosmics but I didn't see your response, PlanB.

Are you saying they were Anacortes mibs after all? I'm confused now.

edit: I'm even more confused now, I just read some more in AMMM and they seem to contradict the date they gave for when Paris was making marbles. Looks like that continued through much of 1987. Plus they seem to give two different dates for the move to Anacortes. I give. One day I'll get it straight. By the way, I found a newspaper interview of a Vitro manager, John Masters, who doesn't seem to be mentioned in AMMM. Was "manager" different from "plant manager"? I still have plenty to sort out, I guess.

Now that I'm done with my part of the cosmic research I'll say what I should've said awhile back -- those aventurine bananas are sharp!

hmmm ... while i'm in the neighborhood catching up ...

the wirepull colors seem like the vacor wicked owl. how sure are you of it being european?

Here's my St. Mary's: