Steph

It wouldn't be the first mistake ever published. I had mostly trusted the report, but thought it was outdated. Baumann mentions different ways to make sulphides, with one being similar to what Roberts describes, though not quite the same.

However, I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. My real question was about whether or not marble molds were ever operated by hand. I hadn't even guessed that making bullet mold marbles might be what would be called a machine process, so Sami's answer surprised me.

LOL. Thanks Felicia. I have more but I got worn out.

Told you about the Pennsylvania tradition. New Castle was trying to be part of it. Don't know that they ever made it.

All the marbles: winner takes everything!

Money, marbles or chalk: I believe this referred to the terms a person might offer for a wager. I think the chalk referred to a gambler's marker. A boxer who would fight for money, marbles or chalk would be willing to take on all comers, no matter what they offered.

Money, marbles and chalk: A variation of the preceding, which seems to have a meaning more along the lines of "all the marbles".

I would have thought the bullet mold marbles would be considered handmade. At least if the mold were operate by hand. True bullet molds (as in lead bullets) could be operated manually. Were marble molds not?

In the 1880's to perhaps the 1920's, it was SAID that sulphides were made in two halves. I've been uncertain about whether that was an accurate report. Here's A. W. Roberts' version from 1883. I think this might have been the source material for articles which appeared in newspapers for years afterward. There was much recycling of filler stories at that time.

Some contain figures of animals and birds, and are known as "glass figure marbles." These are pressed in polished metal moulds the parts of which fit so closely together that not the slightest trace of them is to be seen on the alleys, which is not the case with most of the pressed china alleys, for if one looks over a number of them sharply he will detect a small ridge encircling some of them.

To your summary, I'd add this: Some of what we call a particular manufacturer's version of "oxblood" likely isn't copper-based. And even when copper-based, what we call oxblood only seems to have been made on purpose by a few marble manufacturers.

And now for the mischievous p.s. --- it seems that some of the different copper-based shades, perhaps some of those shown above?, had different names in the late 1800's or early 1900's. e.g., Chicken Blood or Pigeon Blood. From a time when people saw enough blood that they were familiar with the shades I guess.

lovely

last time you posted some this size I was wondering if they were actually played with. now I know they were. Still not sure of the name of the game. And I can't find the reference again!

Supposedly every boy needed one of those biggies, and least in the story teller's neighborhood ....

Yesterday I sent one at about 3:10 and it said I had to wait until 3:15 to send another.

Then I tried at 3:15, using the time given on the front page of the board and still couldn't send.

At 3:16 I was able to send again.

Vacor wirepull types sometimes look like horseshoe cats. Don't see why a german wirepull couldn't. Can you trace one long ribbon around? or does it actually have vanes?

Berry Pink's formal tourney

In spite of some newspaper records, etc., this might only have been from 1940 to 1941, and not national in 1941. Pink worked with the Scripps Howard tourney before 1940. It's just a hunch, but I think he might have branched out on his own because of the S-H tourney's insistence upon clay marbles when he was selling glass.

1940 - Finals at Worlds Fair: Douglas Opperman, 14, Philadelphia, PA

1940 - 150+ contestants

VFW Tourney

Starting in 1947 at Boys Town, but moved around. Albuquerque campaigned to be the permanent host site in 1951. Eaton Rapids, MI had a place of honor as the home of the VFW. Generally there was to be one contestant from each state, but sometimes additional players might be given slots for special reasons. For instance, sometimes past champions did not have to compete again to reach the finals.

1947 - Boys Town, near Omaha, NB: Ray Warren, 13, Old Hickory, TN

1947 - 50 contestants (planned)

1948 - Salt Lake City, UT: Eugene "Mickey" Alvord, 14, Salt Lake City

1949 - Pittsburgh, PA: Dick Atwell, 12, Fort Dodge, IA

1949 - Was the plan to meet in Indianapolis? A Reno paper said the national would be there.

1950 - Eaton Rapids, MI: Tilton Holt, 10 or 11, Wilmington, DE

1950 - 41 contestants

Life Magazine pics from 1950 set to music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2ogroum70

1951 - Albuquerque, NM: Gordon Rowse, 12, Ogden, UT

1952 - Albuquerque, NM: George Andrews, 12 or 13, Durham, NC

1952 - 44 contestants from 36 states

1953 - Portland, OR: Bobby Vigil, 13, Walsenburg, CO

1954 - Akron, OH: Frank Caudillo, 13, North Platte, NE

1955 - Denver, CO: Frank Caudillo, 14, North Platte

1956 - Tallahassee, FL: Richard Austin, 14, Los Alamitos, CA

1957 - Seattle, WA: Misael Zaragoza, 14, McFarland, CA

1957 - a movie was made of the tournament, shown at VFW meetings

1957 - 41 to 43 contestants

1958 - Tucson, AZ: Gary Iverson, 13, Grand Forks, ND

1958 - 44 contestants

1959 - Eaton Rapids, MI: Clyde Archuleta, 13, Denver, CO

1960 - Eaton Rapids, MI: Jewell Dixon, 15, McMinnville, TN

1961 - St. Paul, MN: Mike Butler, 14, Memphis, TN

1961 - 45 contestants from 40 states

1962 - Greensville (sp?), TN:

Tinsley Green -- miscellaneous notes -- no way will I try to make a comprehensive list of those winners LOL [edit: I've been sent a table of Tinsley Green winners. I will add that in a later post.]

U.S. Marbles Championship

2002 - Amy Yarbrough (nee Thompson)

Others -- miscellaneous notes

National Marbles Tourney

Atlantic City, New Jersey

1923 - Harlin McCoy, 14, Columbus, OH
1924 - George Lenox, 14, Baltimore, MD (Catonsville, MD)
1925 - Howard "Dutch" Robbins, 13, Springfield, MA
1925 - notable: Marie Lawley, 13, girl champ of Harrisburg, PA created a sensation
1925 - I think at least one national mib champion became a sportswriter. Was Dutch one of them? Need to check.
1926 - Willis Harper, 11, Bevier, KY
1926 - notable: Francis Kau of Hawaii is first player from American territory
1926 - notable: , 11, girl champ of Cleveland, OH
1927 - Joe Medvidovich, 13, Pittsburgh, PA (Clairton, PA)
1928 - Alfred Huey, 12, Akron, OH (Kenmore, OH)
1928 - 46 boys, 1 girl


Ocean City, New York

1929 - Charles "Sunny" Albany, 12, Philadelpha, PA
1930 - Jimmy Lee, 14, Columbus, OH
1931 - John Jeffries, 12, Greenville, KY
1932 - Harley Corum, 13, Louisville, KY
1933 - Aaron Butash, , Throop, PA
1934 - Clifton Seaver, 13, Springfield, MA
1935 - Henry Altyn, , Throop, PA
1935 - June 30, 1935 article said Seaver passed his crown over, and mayor placed it on Altyn's head.
1934 - How often were crowns re-used? What happened when they were retired?
1936 - Leonard "Bobby" Tyner, 13, Chicago, IL
1936 - Leonard was the first 'colored' champion.
1936 - I don't know if I'm only imagining it, but it seems that he got little press coverage in comparison with other winners of the 30's.
1936 - 44 players (expected)


Wildwood, New Jersey

1937 - Bill Kloss, 13, Greater Canton, OH
1937 - notable: June Lapham, girl champ of Cleveland, OH
1938 - Frank Santo, 13, Throop, PA
1939 - Harry de Board, 12, Landenburg, PA
1940 - James Music, 13, East Point, KY
1940 - There might have been a high profile girl player this year. I see something about "her brilliant playing".
1941 - Gerald "Chick" Robinson, 14, Scranton, PA
1942 - Charley Mott, 13, Huntington, WV


Cleveland, OH

1943 - Richard "Butch" Ryabik, , Pittsburgh, PA
1946 - Raymond Ryabik, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1946 - 17 boys, 3 girls


Wildwood, New Jersey

1947 - Benjamin Sklar, 12, Philadelphia, PA
1948 - Boy: Herbert Turman, 14, Beloit, WI
1948 - Girl: Jean Smedley, 13, Philadelphia, PA
1948See also Mibs & Mibsters, by Paul Kerr, an article from the Beloit Historical Society


Asbury Park, New Jersey

1949 - Boy: George Wentz, 12, Huntington, WV
1949 - Girl: Emma Miller, 11, Canton, OH
1949 - 48 boys, 4 girls
1949 - Emma was Amish. Large crowds gathered to watch her play.
1950 - Boy: Bobby Retzlaff, 14, Montgomery, AL
1950 - Girl: Kay Allen, 13, Greensboro, NC
1950 - 52 contestants
1951 - Boy: Shirley "Windy" Allen, 13, Beckley, WV (Fairdale, WV)
1951 - Girl: Ida Jean Hopkins, 13, Cleveland, OH
1952 - Boy: Russell Gwaltney, 12, Salem, VA
1952 - Girl: Dorothy Hobbs, 14, Martinez, GA
1953 - Boy: Jerry Roy, 13, Huntington, WV
1953 - Girl: Arlene Riddett, 14, of Yonkers, NY
1954 - Boy: Bob Hickman, 14, Huntington, WV
1954 - Girl: Wanita Kucher, 9, Chester, PA
1955 - Boy: Raymond Jones, 12, Pittsburgh, PA
1955 - Girl: Karen Olson, 12, Niles, OH
1955 - Notable: Raymond is sometimes credited as first 'colored' champ, which isn't accurate, but was still special for the time
1956 - Boy: Fred "Freddy" Brown, 12, Beckley, WV
1956 - Girl: Lynette Watkins, 13, Bryn Mawr, PA
1957 - Boy: Stanley "Stan" Herold, 12, Summersville, WV (Muddlety, WV)
1957 - Girl: Lois Fusco, 13, Yonkers, NY
1958 - Boy: Dennis Kyle, 14, Richwood, WV (Nettie, WV)      
1958 - Girl: Jeannette Merlino, 13, Yongers, NY (Sandra Wallace of Ohio is mentioned as champ in a 1990 paper)
1959 - Boy: Matthew Wysocki, 13, Wilkes-Barre, PA (Plains Township)
1959 - Girl: Sandra Stefanchik, 12, Yonkers, NY
1959 - 37 - 40 contestants
1959 - Sandra was described as "only girl ever allowed into the final round of the national marbles tournament", but I think this isn't the only time I've seen this claim in the 1950's. I need to track down the details. I'm not certain what is meant by the "final round". (The reference I quote is a preview of a pay-per-view June 27, 1959 article in the Chicago Tribune.)


Wildwood, New Jersey

1960 - Boy: Tommy Meade, 12, Yonkers, NY
1960 - Girl: Christine Zamojsky, 11, Yonkers, NY
1961 - Boy: Augustus "Ace" Millen, 11, Yonkers, NY
1961 - Girl: Anita Danyluk, 14, Niles, OH
1962 - Boy: Mark O'Mahoney, 13, Pittsburgh, PA
1962 - Girl: Peggy Mullen, 9, Pittsburgh, PA
1963 - Boy: James Donohue, 14, Springfield, MA
1963 - Girl: Patsy Coon, 12, Fort Dix, NJ
1963 - 33 boys, 7 girls
1964 - Boy: Clarence "Peewee" Bower, 14, McGraws, WV (Mullens, WV)
1964 - Girl: Claudia Davis, 12, Yonkers, NY
1965 - Boy: Gary Malcolm, 14, Elkhardt, IN
1965 - Girl: Jacqueline Izaj, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1966 - Boy: Melvin Garland, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1966 - Girl: Marcella Elliott, 14, Wilmington, DE
1967 - Boy: Barry Blum, 13, York, PA
1967 - Girl: Patricia Yurkovich, 13, Pittsburgh, PA
1967 - 38 contestants
1968 - Boy: Rudy Raymond, 14, Reading, PA
1968 - Girl: Debbie Webb, 13, Yonkers, NY
1969 - Boy: Glenn Sigmon, 12, Wharton, WV
1969 - Girl: Maureen Regan, 14, Lawrenceville, PA (Oakland, PA)
1969 - 33 contestants
1970 - Boy: Ray Morgano, 13, Pittsburgh, PA
1970 - Girl: Karen Yurkovich, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1971 - Boy: Rick Mawhinney, 14, Cumberland, MD
1971 - Girl: Cheryl Elliott, 14, Wilmington, DE
1972 - Boy: Ray Jarrell, 13, Whitesville, WV (Naomi, WV?)
1972 - Girl: Kathy Pazkowski, 13, Pittsburgh, PA
1973 - Boy: Doug Hager, 13, Whitesville, WV (Glen Daniel, WV; Mt. View, WV -- did he move between news reports?)
1973 - Girl: Debra Stanley, 14, Reading, PA
1974 - Boy: Larry Kokos, 14, Lawrenceville, PA
1974 - Girl: Susan Regan, 13, Lawrenceville, PA
1974 - Claimed to feature "the first boy-girl meeting in the tournament's history".
1974 - It sure wasn't the first, but it does sound as if Susan came close to winning it all.
1975 - Boy: Richard Unser, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1975 - Girl: Sharon Woolworth, 12, Reading, PA


Jackson, New Jersey

1976 - Boy: Jeff Rice, ,
1976 - Girl: Judy Bosiljevak, , Allegheny County, PA


Wildwood, New Jersey

1977 - Boy: Walter Morgano, 14, Lawrenceville, PA
1977 - Girl: Diann Kopicki, 12, Reading, PA
1978 - Boy: Dean Feinauer, 13, Reading, PA
1978 - Girl: Diane Bertosh, 13, Lawrenceville, PA
1979 - Boy: Danny Stamm, 11, Reading, PA
1979 - Girl: Kris Alfiero, 12, Reading, PA
1980 - Boy: Sandy Nesmith, 14, Naoma, WV
1980 - Girl: Brenda Schwartz, 9, Pottstown, PA
1981 - Boy: Jeff Kimmell, 13, Cumberland, MD
1981 - Girl: Joelle Guiles, 14, Reading, PA
1982 - Boy: Mike Moore, 14, Cumberland, MD
1982 - Girl: Lisa Stamm, 12, Reading, PA
1983 - Boy: Kerry Acord, 11, Mount View, WV
1983 - Girl: Patricia Kimmel, 12, Cumberland, MD
1984 - Boy: Gregg Yakich, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1984 - Girl: Nicole Stamm, 11, Reading, PA
1984 - 45 contestants
1985 - Boy: Jon Jamison, 14, Reading, PA
1985 - Girl: Amy Thompson, 12, Cumberland, MD
1985 - 30 contestants from 12 states
1986 - Boy: Giang Duong, 11, Upper Darby, PA
1986 - Girl: Darlene Schwartz, 12, Berks County, PA
1986 - 34 contestants from 8 states
1987 - Boy: Chad Reber, 11, Berks County, PA
1987 - Girl: Lori Dickel, 14, Ridgely, WV
1988 - Boy: Dan Strohecker, 12, Reading, PA
1988 - Girl: Shannon Capasso, 12, Pittsburgh, PA
1989 - Boy: Nicky Piatek, 9, Pittsburgh, PA
1989 - Girl: Donna Rothenberger, 13, Reading, PA
1989 - 25 boys and 26 girls
1990 - Boy: Carl Whitacre, 12, Ridglely, WV
1990 - Girl: Alison Reber, 10, Fleetwood, PA
1991 - Boy: Brian Shollenberger, 13, Reading, PA
1991 - Girl: Dawn Lancaster, 13, Cumberland, MD
1992 - Boy: Wesley Thompson, , Standing Stone, TN
1992 - Girl: Trish Tressler, , Frederick County, MD
1992 - 70 contestants expected
1993 - Boy: David McGee, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1993 - Girl: Amanda Burns, 12, Moss, TN
1993 - 42 boys and 38 girls expected
1994 - Boy: Bong Duong, , Upper Darby, PA
1994 - Girl: Kim Shuttleworth, 12, Allegheny County, PA
1995 - Boy: Jason Williams, 14, Clarksburg, WV
1995 - Girl: Stephanie Zlokas, 14, Pittsburgh, PA
1996 - Boy: Nathan Thompson, , Monroe County, KY
1996 - Girl: Molly Reecer, 14, Celina, TN
1996 - 31 girls and 32 boys
1997 - Boy: Michael Thomas, 11, Upper Darby, PA
1997 - Girl: Megan Winkelman, 12, Frederick, MD
1997 - 64 contestants
1998 - Boy: Ben Nelson, , ,
1998 - Girl: Emily Martin, 13, Frederick, MD
1998 - about 70 contestants
1999 - Boy: Doug Watson, 13, Greencastle, PA
1999 - Girl: Kathy Stehlik, 11, Perry Hall, MD
1999 - 59 contestants
2010 - see also: Allison-Antrim Museum, Greencastle, PA
2000 - Boy: Andrew Martinez, 14, Grand Junction, CO
2000 - Girl: Larin Miller, 12, Pittsburgh, PA
2001 - Boy: Tim Ratliff, , ,
2001 - Girl: Kristie Vanderzee, , ,
2002 - Boy: Jonathan Hulse, 14, Washington County, MD
2002 - Girl: Morgan Kellman, 13, Middletown, MD
2003 - Boy: Jeremy Hulse, 14, Hagerstown, MD
2003 - Girl: Jennifer Pinciotti, 13, Frederick, MD
2003 - 56 contestants
2004 - Boy: Aaron Nees, , Meas County, CO
2004 - Girl: Carly Miller, , Allegheny County, PA
2005 - Boy: Jamie Miller, , Allegheny County, PA
2005 - Girl: Amy Nees , , Meas County, CO
2006 - Boy: Keith Moss, , Allegheny County, PA
2006 - Girl:Melissa Ashwood, , Gunnison, CO
2007 - Boy: Nick Anderson, , Mesa County, CO
2007 - Girl: Alexandra Bauer, , Pittsburgh, PA (Bloomfield, PA)
2008 - Boy: John Laffakis, , Pittsburgh, PA
2008 - Girl: Amber Ricci, 12, Pittsburgh, PA (Shaler, PA)
2009 - Boy: Ricky Brode, 14, Cumberland, MD
2009 - Girl: Whitney Lapic, 13, Shillington, PA
2009 - Whitney is the daughter of Debra Stanley-Lapic, the 1973 champion
2009 - See: The Wildwood Chronicles
2010 - Boy: Corey Goolsby, 14, Standing Stone, TN (Hanging Limb, TN)
2010 - Girl: Penelope Bauer, 13, Bloomfield, PA
2010 - 17 boys and 18 girls
2011 - Boy: Brandon Matchett, 12, Allegheny Co., PA
2010 - Girl: Bailey Narr, 11, Allegheny Co., PA.
2010 -
2012 - Boy: Caleb Isaacson, 13, Gunnison., CO
2010 - Girl: Logan Mayberry, 11, Clay Co., TN
2010 - 24 boys and 20 girls
2013 - Boy: Cooper Fisher, 12, Middletown Valley, MD
2010 - Girl: Emily Cavacini, 11, Shaler, PA
2010 - 26 boys and 26 girls

2014 - Boy: Dominic Rudakevych, 13, Middletown, MD

2010 - Girl: Marilyn Fisher, 13, Middletown, MD

2010 - 42 contestants (NPR said more girls than boys)

2015 - Boy: Devon Loewendick, 13, Cumberland, MD

         - Girl: Emily Simkovich, 13, of Lansdowne, PA

2016 - Boy: Louie Lee, , Mesa Co, CO

          - Girl: Haley Grenesko, , Pittsburgh, PA.

2017 - Boy: Eli Murphy, , Allegheny Co, PA

          - Girl: Sierra Ricci, , Allegheny Co, PA.

2018 - Boy: Joshua Johnston, ,

          - Girl: Madison Johnson, ,

2019 - Boy: Spencer Hays, 13,  Gunnison, CO

          - Girl: Lauren Young, 14, of Frederick, MD

2020, 2021 Canceled due to Covid

2022 99th NMT winners Jessica Johnson of Cape May Co, NJ and Todd Kmiecik of Frederick Co, MD

2023 100th NMT winners Jessica Thompson of Middletown, MD and  Isaiah Garcia of Philadelphia, PA

Yes, they moved from Vienna to Parkersburg in 1945.

Okie, yours might be a conqueror variant, introduced during WWII. Straddling the time of the move IIUC. So I think it could be from either site.

I think I have most of the champs from national tourneys, on notes scattered here and there. Time to bring them together. I might even have photos of most of them, but I'll stick with the basics for now.

1922 -- the exciting saga which caught the national eye and led to the Scripps - Howard tourney

[space reserved]

(I actually posted a lot here, The Marble Wars of 1922 but I found some more since, and haven't quite sorted it all out. Sorry, it's a long download. I should edit my posts to replace the big pix with thumbnails.)

Before 1922 -- [space reserved]

After 1922

During my reading about tournaments, I was greatly impressed by the coverage -- and mentorship -- in Beckley WV. They make a great study in community involvement and support of youth.

I also noticed that records were frequently forgotten. People in the 50's were credited with "firsts" which occurred in the 20's or 30's (first girl competing with boys at nationals, first negro champion). Smaller firsts and other records took less time to forget.

Weird "facts" crop up too. On Dec. 17, 1966, in the Hartford Courant, it was claimed that Louisville used to be the site of the national marbles champ but no more, they said. Now it is in New York. (they said)

Related web pages --

The National Tournament site: http://www.nationalmarblestournament.org/

Kings (and Queens) of the Ring: Page 1, Page 2

Mibs & Mibsters, by Paul Kerr, an article from the Beloit Historical Society

Top marbles tourney rolls out the masters -- The 16th annual U.S. Marbles Championship was held in 2008. It is for adult players and former natioinal champs of any age.

The Kimmell Family Online -- Rolley Hole Tourney pix, U.S. National Championshop pix, and pix of more than one national champ grown up.

Generations of players hone their marble skills for spring's big tourney

Life Magazine Pix at Google -- A lot of tournament pix. At least some are VFW. I need to learn how to use that tool. Wow.

This is the Amish marble queen from 1949, from Life Magazine. How cool is she?!

The Magic Bond, from 1955, Part I -- at minute 13 there is a little VFW marble tournament footage. There should be a whole VFW marble tournament movie "out there" somewhere. Hope the film was saved. :-)

Hey there Jill Marie!

Ray, in the realm of technicalities, what figure are you giving for the cost per unit? 17 cents? .17 cents?

Is that for materials?

Cost of transportation needs to be factored in. Most investors traveled to get them. If they were shipped by mail, then factor in significant breakage.

The ones sold on ebay are handpicked. There's time cost involved in preparing them for listing -- pix and such. Then factor in ebay fees.

And I suspect that most won't be deemed worthy of listing individually.

That doesn't help your $300 investment. But I think $10 or even higher for some of the more choice examples isn't as outrageous as the cost of materials might suggest.

I admit to some bias, of course.

Sue, it IS a clear base. Jeroen said so, and if you look closely at pic #3 you can see past the blue.

Or perhaps what Baumann calls a "Colored-Glass Overlay"?

Edit: "Clear Overlay".

Anyway, he calls them "Indian"-style marbles. The clear overlay is the one with a clear base. The colored-glass overlay has light- or medium-colored base. And after that come the maglites.

What Baumann calls submarines have white strands just below the surface, usually in a blue or green base.

p.s. Here's what Hansel said in a submarine thread:

in addition, submarines *always* have faceted pontils. Indians, banded opaques, joseph coats, lutzes, almost never.

Hansel

Hi there everyone, I just got this marble today and I have no idea what to call it...I think some kind of Submarine. Let me describe it: the size is 1-1/4", it has a clear glass core with thin blue lines on it with a few spaces in between them. Then above this layer (but under the surface) bright yellow/white/orange lines. Then there is another layer on the surface (like an Indian swirl) with lines of bright orange, bright red, rust-red, white and yellow. So there's 3 layers of decoration. The contrast between the dark blue and bright colored lines is amazing. Here are some pics:

A clear base which looks colored because of the blue lines? Could that be a mist?

An interesting spin on your original question is "who used the word oxblood" and closely related terms, and when? Historically what was "real" oxblood glass? One thing I know is that there is more info available than that which is common knowledge.

Brian's Canal Fulton Glassworks link has some great keywords. He gives 19th century terms for the glass which we now most often call oxblood: brick red, Sang de Boeuf, sealing wax red, and simply dark red. The French Sang de Boeuf translates to oxblood.

In Swedish the translation is more obvious -- they say oxblodsfärgad.

Ox-blood red is also a term used in the 19th century, which may have been synonymous with sang de boeuf, at least some of the time.

I sure would like to hear what the OED has to say about oxblood and related words. I used to have a good dictionary with dated etymologies but I don't know if it had the word oxblood. It was an abridged dictionary so maybe not, since oxblood has fallen out of common use. (Brian, do you happen to have the OED entry?)

In the meantime I'll do what I do and keep jotting down notes on related source material as I come across it.

Felicia, the link which you sent me for copper glazes in The Complete Guide to High-fire Glazes turned on a light for me. The term oxblood was coined in a completely separate setting from glass marbles. That's a given. So to understand historical oxblood it makes sense to study it in non-marble settings. Duh. :doh: I think we generally under-utilize the potential for non-marble items to teach us about marbles. For example, we don't often enough remember what we might learn about glass marbles from studying beads made with similar techniques. And in the case of oxblood, it appears that the source of much historical information will be from materials about pottery.

Well, so far I know that the term oxblood, or at least the classier sang-de-boeuf, was strongly associated with copper-based glass in the 1900's. I don't imagine that it was always so strongly associated with any particular formula, but sometimes it was. Considering copper-based versions, I've seen a couple of references associating it with opaque glass. But I've also seen evidence which seems to suggest that one desireable version of copper-based oxblood may have been transparent. ? (edit: This is probably the reference I saw before to transparency.)

And I've seen evidence that the process for creating oxbood was understood in scientific terms in the 1900's, as was the connection between oxblood and aventurine. The result of the process wasn't always tagged with the name oxblood, and I don't know when the opaque version was understood in terms of wavelenths of light, but it was understood at a technical level. Here is an 1871 example under the name of Hematinone on p. 3 of Vol. III of A Dictionary of Chemistry. Funny thing -- ox-blood is mentioned on p. 2, but it's really referring to the blood of an ox.

Again, I realize that at least part of my musings will be a mere shadow of what Brian already knows thoroughly. But as I haven't yet seen quite what I want to know, not altogether at once, I'll keep musing.

1892

Fifty years and over of Akron and Summit County:

embellished by nearly six hundred engravings--

portraits of pioneer settlers, prominent citizens,

business, official and professional--ancient and

modern views, etc.; nine-tenth's of a century of

solid local history--pioneer incidents, interesting events--

industrial, commercial, financial and educational progress,

biographies, etc. (1892)

That has information about Martin Christensen's company, the Drop Hammer Forging Company, aka the Drop Hammer Forge Company. The official entry is small but the company is referred to at least one other place. I don't yet know if the book has info on marbles. I haven't done the search for that yet. Just trying at the moment to get some good screenshots of the text related to the Drop Hammer Forge co. Need to do that before I shut the computer down. The PDF version is a ginormous download, so I'm not saving it to my harddrive. Just going for the relevant screen captures.

Something is said on the archive page about a date of 1887, but the year 1890 is given as the date of incorporation for the company, so let's stick with the 1892 as stated above.

update: yes, there is info about marbles.

Whoa! Before the American Marble and Toy Manufacturing Company started making marbles they made toy jugs. No surprise there. But do you know how many? It says they were so popular that within 3 years 30,000 were made a day. That's a bunch of jugs. Where are they now?

Big finish! wow

1877

Small mention but interesting.

International Exhibition, Reports and Awards, Group II

By United States Centennial Commission, Francis Amasa Walker

Published by J.B. Lippincott, 1878

Item notes: v. 1-2

From page 257:

1851

Also, here is a brief mention of toy marbles in connection with the 1851 International Exhibition in England. The table seems to be a catchall list of imports to England -- or is that to the city of Hull? Don't imagine this to be "interesting" but who knows when it might turn out to be "useful".

Official Descriptive and Illustrated Catalogue, Vol. 2, page 816

1853

Better: At the New York exhibition we see that E. G. Vetters, Jr. makes "imitation agate marbles in glass":

Official Catalogue of the New-York Exhibition of the Industry of All Nations, page 135

By Association for the exhibition of the industry of all nations, New York Exhibition of the Industry of All Nations

Contributor G.P. Putnam and Co

Published by G.P. Putnam & co., 1853

1882

Glass in the Old World

By Madeline Anne Wallace- Dunlop, Leadenhall Press

Published by Field & Tuer, 1882

For one thing, it mentions "sealing wax red", that is to say, oxblood.

1900, reprinted 1907

Another result I found ... well, sort of found ... was Recipes for Flint Glass Making. Found it mentioned in the ad sections of different early 1900's books, for example, on p. 16 of the Catalog of Special Technical Books at the end of The Chemistry of Essential Oils and Artificial Perfumes (1908).

The contents list mentions the "Sealing-wax Red".

Also mentions "Dead White" with the parenthetical note that it would be "for moons". So, is this moss agate glass? Or moonie glass? Or something else?

It's also in a 1903 book on Gutta Percha. The ad is on pp. 16, 17 of the catalog at the end, but maybe the Gutta Percha book would be cool in its own right. :-)

1899

Ah, here's one, Elements of Glass and Glass Making.

By Benjamin Franklin Biser, Julius Arnold Koch

Published by Glass and pottery publishing company, 1899

Copper red starts on p. 124. It has recipes.

P.s., I got the keyword "sealing wax red" from Brian Graham's page here: Melting Oxblood or Haematinum red glass. Other keywords he gives, “brick red”, "Sang de Boeuf" and “dark red”.

p.s., Felicia, in case you weren't aware of this, even though the German ones are sometimes called Leighton transitionals, they weren't made by Leighton.

There was a misunderstanding about where those originated.

Wow, hard to believe but today is the first chance I've had to read the thread. I didn't know my name had arisen.

I think of Brian Graham as the man to speak on oxblood, since he makes it. Here is a nice discussion at one of his sites:

Melting Oxblood or Haematinum red glass

To some (especially in the non-marble world), oxblood is just a color. No restrictions on how the color is achieved. Of course marble collectors tend to be more picky. The key to "real" oxblood seems to be copper crystals of just the right size to block out light -- but not large enough to sparkle. (Already, and as always, I'm worried that I've said something wrong, because this is over my head.)

Larger crystals would give aventurine. More about that is in the Jabo book. Adding aventurine is how the recent Jabos have gotten their oxblood, if I understand correctly, and yes, again IIUC, it was a surprise when it appeared during the tank wash on Nov. 27, 2007. Now it is done on purpose.

MFC's formula for oxblood was purchased from James Harvey Leighton. Akro's formula was stolen from MFC, along with Martin Christensen's marble machine designs and MFC's client list. Tainted blood.

I don't know where Leighton procured the formula. He was an American, from a long line of glassmakers, some well known for experimenting with glass formulas. But I am under the impression that James Harvey didn't, or didn't often, use oxblood himself. Oxblood formulas go back a long way. But why would Leighton have it, not use it, and then recommend it to Christensen?

I'm still unsure about the "realness" of Alley oxblood, or Pelt. Some horsehair ox doesn't look quite right, but some of the "ox" looks very convincing to me though I presume it is accidental. My hunch is copper is involved in achieving the aqua glass shown here. A sweet swirl Gary posted, two multicolors of Carole's, one with similar colors from Marblealan, and another fascinating one of Carole's:

Felicia, I've heard the "black filaments" are actually transparent green -- like some of the glass you see in Alan's pix. But both Alan and Brian mention black separately from green, so I am not sure.

oxblood

I'll let Brian Graham explain it: Melting Oxblood or Haematinum red glass

An important thing to know is that "real" oxblood is copper-based and opaque. The teeny tiny copper crystals are just the right size to make it opaque without being big enough to make the glass sparkly, if I understand correctly. It turns out that aventurine and oxblood are close kin.

p.s. By "real" I mean the type of red glass found in MFC bricks, that is to say MFC's "American Cornelians", and in Akro's oxblood marbles. [edit: I put "real" in quotation marks because there are other things which can be called oxblood, but in general when marble collectors say oxblood, they mean Akro's version. And in general, in my experience, when they call other glass a type of oxblood they use a qualifier. For example, they might say specifically "Vitro oxblood" to let it be known that they are not claiming it is the same, but it looks close.]

Some fab oxblood examples are posted here:

Who Used Oxblood?

About the word 'oxblood', I need to get my hands on some good dictionaries -- ones with good etymologies, including dates of earliest known usage. I can see from Brian's explanation that at least variants of the terms 'oxblood' had been in use before Martin Christensen started making American Cornelians, but when was the precise term 'oxblood' first used and in what circles? What about the term's near relatives? For instance, what about the Swedish term "oxblodsfärgad"? And what, for instance, does the oxblood used on ceramics look like?

Webster's 1913 dictionary merely refers to the color, not the opacity, saying that "oxblood red" is "a dark brownish red". We can't expect much more in a dictionary for laymen. Also, that's a perfectly correct description for oxblood as used in non-glass settings. How was the term used in more technical works on glass and glaze?

Somewhat random references deposited here for the time being:

1893: p. 264 of Pottery and Porcelain of the United States.

More references specially to Chinese sang-de-boeuf:

1897: p. 335 of Journal of the Franklin Institute: The Chemistry of the Pottery Industry (Also has Chicken Blood)

1902: p. 346 of A Sketch of the History of Ceramic Art in China

1910: p. 27 of Hard paste porcelain (Oriental) China, Japan, Siam, Korea

1919: p. 775 of Chemical Abstracts: Notes on the "Sang de Boeuf" and the copper-red Chinese glazes

1980: Bulletin - Krannert Art Museum. p. 12 of this PDF refers to an oxblood-glazed line introduced in 1900 by Roseville Pottery in Zanesville, OH. The line is called Rozane Mongul.

1907: Streaks of pure ox blood (on an item in an art catalog)

1914: p. 81 of House Beautiful: The Altman Collection IV -- Old Chinese Porcelains

1948?: Optical Properties of Glass from Alamogordo, New Mexico. Oxblood color is mentioned on p. 3.