Shamrock Marbles

Mike, Great stuff and thanks for sharing! Tons of information. Love the "teats" comment! Happy New Year. John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Mike, A very short sleep and off to a meeting. This reminds me of the arguments over what caused the extinction of dinosaurs. Was it a meteor, the earth tilting on axis, a virus or...? Then boom!! Gary Larson comes along and he shows how dinosaurs really became extinct in his one panel illustration. Talk soon! John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Mike, Finished up my response early in the morning after a night of CAD work. Eyes red, neck hurts, but still a smile on my face. Always enjoy your posts and your engaging debate! Going to bed. John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Mike, John, I'm glad you got nothin' to sell, because with all due respect, I'm still not buying it. No problem. The illustration of the finished marble in the patent drawing is inconvenient in that it does not resemble a feathered slag, but it does appear to be what this set up would produce. No, not inconvenient, just incorrect. Why is it incorrect? Look at Figure 6 again. "Remove" in your mind the dark squiggly lines overlaying the hanging gob. You will see the lines stretched vertically on the gob (as described in his patent). Any glass pattern created upstream will be stretched from gravity as it passes through the second orifice. No way would it be possible for a "wire-pull" or a swirl gather to survive intact (as drawn in Figure 7) as it extrudes through the nozzle. By diverting the stream in this manner by causing the stream to adhere to the heated inclined surface 24, the stream will be caused to come in contact with the lower part of the auxiliary furnace rather than falling directly through the opening 30 in the lower bushing 25. The heat in the auxiliary chamber 23 is preferably so controlled and distributed, as to cause this downwardly flowing column of material to adhere to one side of the cone throat 34—35 of the block 33 as clearly shown in Fig. 1 of the drawings. This supplements the effect of the oriffice surfaces 13-12, in drawing out the more or, less irregular mass of the striating ingredient into the desired striae. The flowing body of the components, passes through the auxiliary furnace chamber 23 where it is allowed to be further elongated and produce a more finely striated stream of molten material. The piled material will then slowly flow towards and through the opening 30 of the lower bushing 28 and pass downwardly into an elongated form, as clearly shown in Figs. 1 and 6 of the drawings. Patent US1927650 is a utility patent not a design patent. Sellers is trying to protect the machine and process from his competition and the predatory business practices of Hartford-Empire. If Sellers wanted to protect the style of marble, then he would have applied for a Design Patent. Figure 7 is technically inconsequential, but becomes rather a distraction (red herring). False argument: The patent document doesn't show a "feathered" marble, therefore, this patent couldn't be for making "feathered" marbles. Back in the day, you had to apply for patents through law firms. There is a very specific language that must be used. Not only must the language be specific, but the illustrators/draftsmen had to be trained in the "art". You scan send your typed description and sketches to the lawyer, but they will be massaged to conform to the expectations of the patent examiner. These documents went back and forth many times between the parties. It is not uncommon for "translation" errors to occur. The guys doing the work in the law office are completely disconnected from the actual equipment. Still pretty much as it is today. I never met the lawyer handling my first (and only) patent and he never saw the equipment. I am adamant in my belief that feathered slags were made by casting chunks of white cullet onto the surface of the base glass in the furnace, as opposed to ladles of molten glass. The patent drawing shows a pool of glass below the first side port, that would have been added in a molten state with the charging ladle, and it is stretching out toward the discharge well as a single line of glass surrounded by the base glass. No argument here. In fact, the patent leaves open the actual delivery method and heated state of the glass. It even suggest multiple ports to apply glass. However, Sellers doesn't specifically state that chunks of cullet or large frit must be used in order to provide a plethora of mini-streams necessary to get the desired effect of fine striated glass. As it piles up on the inclined surface below, it would be a mass of looping lines in all directions, as shown in the drawing. The drawings do not show looping lines in all directions. Figure 1 shows the accumulation against the side of the second conical nozzle. Figure 6 is a magnified, 90-degree (side) view of Figure 1. Figure 6 clearly shows the glass winding back and forth upon itself like ribbon candy you get at Christmas time. Glass is viscous stuff, and at the fast pace that the gobs are cut, while flowing out the hole to be cut (ka-chink-ka-chink-ka-chink), Don't know how this statement applies to either support or refute any opinions. All I can ask is, "What is fast pace?" "How many cuts per minute?" "Did the shear really make the sound 'ka-chink-ka-chink-ka-chink'?" I seriously doubt, even at high temperature, that nested chevron patterns would be formed continuously on the gob or drip. Okay. That's your opinion. There would be some pattern movement, surely, Agreed. This is a process that is fluid and ever changing. Definitely not a "set it and forget it" operation. but I suggest that the feathering aberrations of the stream would be more likely to occur in a different set up, due to interaction with a plunger, and without the 9" drop into a piling up chamber. This is where we disagree. Feathering isn't a statistic aberration, but a designed outcome. And it is this set-up, as described in the patent, that results in "feathered" marbles. I consider marbles with inferior "feathering" as statistical aberrations. I continue to believe this is more likely a possible set up for the wildly patterned so-called "Millers", and the "burnt" marbles. There is plenty of reason to use opaque glass in a process that piles up the glass, even if you can't see inside the marble, because the resulting patterns on the surface of the marble could be extraordinary, if you like folded loops and flames and stuff. I think Sellers Peltier realized that, too. Really, not part of this discussion. Dave, wanted opinions as to whether Patent US1927650 was used to make feathered slags. Maybe another thread you can start and lay out your argument? You may scoff and laugh, if you like. No scoffing or laughing here in Kansas. Oh...as for the nice reverse twist marbles, as much as I've always wanted to believe that Sellers Peltier made those on purpose, I never found any info to back up that hope, and I have to agree that they just happen sometimes. Agreed. My belief is that these are statistical outliers and an indication that the marble machine wasn't "just right." Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

The cold rolled marks are the result of the surface cooling quickly from contact with the Forming Rollers (Augers). Once in contact with the Forming Rollers, the gob is "twisted". Since, the surface has cooled, the glass has to "wrinkle" as it is twisted. I wouldn't argue calling these cold rolled marks. Once this surface is set, there isn't enough residual heat in the marble core to "remelt" or "smooth" the surface. One could torch the marble as it travels down the augers, but heat and water from the combustion process will just rust up the rollers. Fundamentally, the gob of glass is spinning on an axis parallel to the Forming Rollers and not turning on multiple axes as desired. A witness to this is the number of "Footballs" or "Easter eggs" created. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Thank you Griff. You proved my point. My position: Once Dave gets his Marble System variables in tune (particularly the Forming Machine), he won't be making anymore Rams Heads. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Fair enough, I wouldn't want you to divulge any trade secrets or violate a signed NDA. Question 1: In all the years and runs at Jabo, how many times have you seen "Rams Head" marbles?

Griff, Would it be fair to say that you have intimate knowledge of the machinery and various runs at Jabo, Sammy's and DAS? John

Gents, Yes, those are great examples of balanced "Rams Head", "Back Twist", "Chevron" style machine made marbles. There are also versions where only one pole exhibits the "Twist" or "Ying-Yang" feature. Go to the DAS Rams Head Marbles thread for continued discussion about this style. John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Ann, Are you sitting down? Here is the answer in its full unadulterated blasphemy: The marble augers twisted the glass. Yes, this is totally opposite from the widely held belief that the marble rounding machine does not alter the pattern. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" The above is similar to "crop-dusting" your Boss' wife at a company cocktail party. Sitting back and eating popcorn.

Mike, Good to see you, too! As a lurker, I get to see you more than you see me (6:1). Always enjoy your posts, but thoroughly enjoy your spirit. Ron, I guess I need some schooling. The picture above from Mike shows some marbles that I would consider "Miller Swirls". Correct? What do you call the Peltier marbles that have a defined "twist" like the DAS "Rams Head" marbles? Peltier "Swirls"? Peltier "Twists"? Miller "Twists"? (Yes, I know some cringe a the word "Miller" and consider it a misnomer.) Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Ann, I was hoping for the discussion of the DAS "Ram Head" marbles and Peltier "Miller" Swirls to pop-up, but I was enjoying this one on the sidelines, while it lasted. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Dave, Yes, I take the position that Patent US1927650 describes the technique and equipment required to make the Peltier "feathered" slags. Ann, Damn, that is one helluva call-out! Where did that "fluid dynamics guy" description come from? LOL! A major weakness of this patent is "Figure 7". To me, the figure represents a "wire pull" instead of a "wood-grained" or "feathered" slag. This drawing conflicts with the text. "If the outfowing molten mass can be drawn out or attenuated sufficiently, and then re-fused, before the suspended or mold charge is cut off, then the striating material may become distributed in the mass of the suspended or mold charge, so as to appear as a group of lines or streaks therein." The magical element is the second chamber after the initial plunger and nozzle. It is here that the initial stream winds back and forth upon itself against the second conical nozzle wall. The opaque portion of the glass stream is presented to the outside of said nozzle. Due to the shape of the nozzle and distribution of the glass, the center (or middle) portion of the gather flows faster toward the opening. This difference in flow pulls the middle away from the edges and elongates the opaque glass ribbon. The result is a series of nested chevrons. Look at perfect example of a Peltier "Feathered" Slag. It should have two cut-lines (one at each pole) and the feathering is on one side only. (>>>>>) The center of the arrow is the direction the glass flowed out of the second nozzle at the shearing device. \\ // Nozzle V V _V_ Shear V V | V | V V Flow Marbles that exhibit more than 180-dgrees (one side) of feathering are the result of an elongated gob that is sheared and folded onto itself (like a "U"). Not unlike how the Jabo "Butt Crack" or Vitro "V" are created. Check out Bob Block's green slag on eBay right now. There is no argument that statistical aberrations can occur during a manufacturing run, thus resulting in "unexplainable" results. The goal is to provide consistent and repeatable results. Toss the outliers! (Or keep them if they're cool.) One final point, the key is that the glass stream hits the side of the second conical nozzle. This constrains the glass and the direction of "wobble" or "waver". If the stream where to hit at the center, it could move freely 360-degrees and wrap like a "flame" or become a "wire pull". Over boil some angel hair pasta. Take one very limp noodle. Hold it vertically. Lower onto a table or flat surface. Keep your hand steady in the same vertical axis. Avoid influencing any side-to-side motion. Let the noodle and gravity do the work. Keep lowering the noodle and watch how it piles up. Mike, I hear you. Ain't got nothin' to sell either. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Back in September, I was invited to Sauder Village to demonstrate the second generation marble machine for visitors. As luck would have it, there happened to be a reasonably seasoned resident glass artist on site - Mark Matthews. During the four days of fun, we made a few interesting marbles. Some of these rare gems are for sale and would make great stocking stuffers. You can find a few of Mark's personal collaboration marbles available through his website: http://www.markmatthewsglass.com/nubs1.html See all four pages. There was an article in the Toledo Blade documenting our demonstration: https://www.toledoblade.com/A-E/2013/09/13/Sauder-Village-s-talented-artisans-put-on-a-colorful-show.html ------- How the Collaboration Marbles are Made When Mark cleans up the end of his cane, he snips off a "nub" of glass. Please refer to photo "Step 20" in Baumann's book, "Collecting Antique Marbles". Mark has been keeping these "nubs" since the second Reagan Administration (circa 1985). When you visit his shop, you can see them stored in "bottles" up in the rafters. The "bottles" are really unfinished jars for his Population Portrait series. Mark hand selected "nubs" and arranged them in a kiln. The "nubs" where pre-heated to prevent thermal shock. With a hot punty, Mark would then pick up each "nub" until an appropriate sized assemblage was gathered. The mass was heated until molten, then cut off into the machine for rounding. Rounded marbles were removed and placed into another kiln for annealing. No two are alike. Marbles deemed worthy by Mark are signed: "Mark Matthews JM 2013" Only signed marbles are being sold by Mark. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Edna, Is this the one? http://anythinggoes43567.yuku.com/forums/2/Jabo-Land#.T9-urVs3t-U John

Roger, That is really neat reading! Thanks! Sincerely, John

Steph, Yep, Horace Hill was one to trust. Especially when it came to accounting. Figures lie and Liars figure! Is there any information in Cohill's MFC book that would confirm that these numbers are correct? Thanks, John

John, Thanks for the feedback. My understanding of what was coming from Germany would have been Cane-Cut (Latts, Indians, Onionskins, etc.), Swirls with ground pontils, sulphides, stone agates, clay and painted chinas. Please forgive me if I missed something. Mr. Strobel states in his letter opposing the tariff, "Glass marbles that are imported are entirely different styles than those made in the United States." Mr. Strobel also iterates that he sells both German and US marbles. Wouldn't this give him a strong perspective about the differences in glass marbles? I would suspect that the finish quality and roundness of the MFC marbles was superior to those made in Germany. Would that be a fair guess? Also, were the MFC slags that much different in appearance than German Slags? Was the color and clarity of MFC glass more appealing? There would be no doubt that MFC Bricks stood out from the competition. Did kids shoot with those glass German mades? I figured that they were keepers to show friends. I thought most marbles at the time that were played with would have been real Agates (for the shooter) and Clay Commies. When did kids use glass marbles in the ring? Did rich kids play with glass and poor kids play with clay? If you are playing for keeps, would you put your pretty glass marbles out while your competition puts out their clays? Did Martin ask for more knowing that if he got nothing extra, that at least the existing tariff would stay in effect? Surely during WWI, with German imports stopped, the US marble market took off without any competition and glass companies like Akro flourished. Just trying to figure it out. Again, John thanks for the feedback. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

A double thumbs up to you! Thanks! John

Steph, I made reference to the casket thing for a few reasons: 1) The Wheaton Village Museum of Glass has a glass childs casket on display. It gave me chills every time I saw it. 2) I thought it was interesting that Miller made equipment for its manufacture. Marbles to caskets. Craddle to grave. 3) From a technical prespective, making thick wall pressed glass would have its problems. 4) How much would a glass casket weigh? I'd hate to help carry it. John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Mike, I believe these are referred to as "Inverted Apothecary" Jars/Bottles or "Show Globes". I have seen them called "Inverted Apothecary Show Globes". Whatever they are called, I'm sure there is a proper name among the Bottle Collectors. Type in "Inverted Apothecary" on Ebay or Google search images. Yours are super neat and a great way to display assorted marbles. Thanks for sharing! John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Nope, I don't think you missed anything, but I'm sure others have. There's a ton of great info buried in her hard work. Maybe once in a while someone should link one of the topics back to the General Board to create traffic and discussion? Here's the link to Steph's Study Hall: http://marbleconnection.com/topic/10991-mfc-timeline/page__p__93678__hl__tariff__fromsearch__1#entry93678 Back to the subject at hand... Don't you find it ironic that the Man who brought us marble-making automation (to reduce labor and increase production) is still asking for help to compete? Willie G. would be proud of him! Also, was the actual tariff increased per Martin's request? Or did it stay the same? Finally, why would you ask for protection when your product is significantly different that what was being imported? Thanks! John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Here's an article that dicusses Akro-Agate ordering a shearing device from Miller in Swissvale, PA. National Glass Budget, May 15, 1915, 31st Year - No. 1, Page 7. Automatic Shears Ordered. One of the latest creations at the Miller machine shop, Swissvale, Pa., are automatic shears adaptable to various purposes in connection with the manufacture of tableware, novelties, etc., which are conceded to be a marked improvement over the hand shears previously employed . During the past week the Akro Agate Co., of Clarksburg, W. Va., placed an order for a set of these shears, to be used in connection with a marble-making machine. Shears of this type have already been introduced at the D. C. Jenkins factory, Kokomo, Ind., and the Phoenix factory, Monaca, Pa. See photograph and descriptive matter relative to this new contrivance on ninth page of this issue. http://books.google.com/books?id=EfpYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT12&dq=akro+agate+miller+shearing&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LafMT8bNIoPg2QXSzPTZCw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=akro%20agate%20miller%20shearing&f=false Now don't forget to scroll down two pages to the bottom of the ninth page! Awesome advertisement! Here's a link to the patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=ES8_AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA4&dq=miller+glass+shear&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6ajMT5jrAubW2gWV6aTZCw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=miller%20glass%20shear&f=false Finally, if you scroll down the National Glass Budget: 1) There is an article announcing the installation of the shears. (August 7, 1915). 2) And another article describing the installation of three machines. (December 18, 1915). Enjoy! John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Looks like Miller was hiring back in 1917. Yes, this is the same Miller that made the marble machine for Peltier. http://books.google.com/books?id=MPtYAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA17&dq=national+glass+budget+miller+swissvale&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cz_MT4GTLuae2QWVqJTaCw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=national%20glass%20budget%20miller%20swissvale&f=false Now, where did I leave the keys to the Time-Machine? ---------------- Miller also made equipment to make glass caskets. http://books.google.com/books?id=MPtYAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA23&dq=national+glass+budget+miller+swissvale+caskets&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wkPMT9H4CcGQ2gWm2ODaCw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=national%20glass%20budget%20miller%20swissvale%20caskets&f=false ----------------- Miller was also expanding their facility. http://books.google.com/books?id=MPtYAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA7&dq=national+glass+budget+pressure+of+orders&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gkTMT4njDcX42gW9itnZCw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=national%20glass%20budget%20pressure%20of%20orders&f=false Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

...with reference to Arnold Fiedler. National Glass Budget, October 6, 1917. G.A. Pflueger, secretary and manager of the Akro Agate Co., Inc. Clarksburg, W. Va., was in Pittsburg the forepart of this week. With the use of a special machine, the factory conducted by Mr. Pflueger produces colored, opal and crystal glass toy marbles, glass caster marbles and glass balls for lithographer's use. Arnold Fiedler, who as a color maker has few equals in this country, is identified with this company. http://books.google....o-agate&f=false Enjoy! John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"