Shamrock Marbles

To All: I think the definition of "orange peel" may vary from individual to individual (myself included). Clarifying this may help in the discussion. Photo samples would help. Steph: What Causes Orange Peel? Since this is a marble chat board, I'm assuming you're referring to orange peel on spherical glass marbles as opposed to bottles, plate glass, car paint, etc. Is it glass temperature and cooling rates? Yes, kind-of, but let me develop this a bit more below. Is it something more complicated like the chemistry of the glass involved? I'm sure some chemical imbalance could be at play, but most glass formulae are well established. I wouldn't rule this out, but I would marginalize it to the less than 1% category. Bumblebee: Rough rollers? The definition of "rough rollers" can vary. If you are referring to the commonly found pocked surface ("orange peel") of marble machine augers, then I can agree. It was my assumption orange peel happened due to surfaces on the marble machine, because I've only seen it on very large mibs. I figured the heavier big marbles while still malleable would gather these dimples by virtue of their weight. Just a theory, though. I would agree with your general assessment, but let me run with it a bit more. Hope we can all agree that small and large marbles can get orange peel, but why big marbles more than small ones? A 5/8" marble has a volume of 0.12783 in^3. A 3/4" marble has a volume of 0.22089 in^3 (1.73x larger than a 5/8"). A 1" marble has a volume of 0.5236 in^3 (4.1x larger than a 5/8"). A 1-1/4" marble has a volume of 1.02265 in^3 (8x larger than a 5/8"). [using glass with the same density, a 1" marble weighs 4.1x more than a 5/8".] Just a guess but probably 90% of all marbles run are 5/8" with the remaining 10% of smaller and larger marbles (of which shooter 3/4" are included). Large marbles (say over 3/4") are infrequently run, because they are expensive to produce and the demand wasn't there. This meant that marble rounding machines for large spheres where mostly idle throughout the year. Rounding augers are made of steel. The environments of Illinois, Ohio and West Virginia vary wildly from Winter to Summer. An idle marble machine would warm up from the heat of mid-Summer day. As the sun fell and the air and marble machine cooled, the moist, humid summer air would condense on the surface of the augers. This surface water would evaporate the next day as the temperature rose. Little-by-little, oxides (rust) would form on the steel surface. The rust doesn't form evenly, but becomes micro-localized and develops an orange peel surface. https://abhsscience.wikispaces.com/Rusting+SB When it comes time to dust off the large machine for a run, the operators have to decide how to clean the auger grooves. Use a wire brush to knock off most of the rust on the surface, then run a bunch of glass through to get the remainder down in the little pockets/pits? I'm sure people have seen the first marbles come off a new run and there is rust on the marble surface for a while. The machine in the above photos is the Jabo machine at Wheaton Village before Scott Meyer reconditioned her. After the machine was rehabbed, they ran some samples across the rollers. Those samples exhibit extreme orange peel. Block auctioned a few of these and photos do exist (maybe someone can post?). All small and large glass gobs are molten as they are delivered to the augers. At the moment the gob touches the augers, the surface of the molten glass gets imprinted with the texture of the roller. However, the weight of a large marble does force the glass against the roller surface more than a smaller volume/weight gob. Larger marble=heavier weight=deeper impression. Smaller marble=lighter weight=lighter impression. Once imprinted, it can't be removed. I like watching people run a torch across the marbles as they run down the auger in the hopes of rounding a marble or smoothing the surface. The results of combusting gas (propane or other hydrocarbons) are CO2 and H2O (water). Yes, hot water is being blasted onto the steel augers below. And yes, surface rust forms instantaneously. Those marbles will have a light copper looking rust on the surface. I've got to run for now... Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

No secret here. My rollers run at room temperature. Pretty smooth and minty marble surfaces. Sincerely, John McCormick Shamrock Marbles

Hey Tall, Try Moon Marble. www.moonmarble.com 12 small stands for $3.60 ($0.30 each). https://www.moonmarble.com/p-1748-plastic-marble-stands-by-the-dozen.aspx or Land of Marbles http://www.landofmarbles.com/pc/s024/marble-storage-and-display.html $0.37 each for a qty of 50. Good luck! John McCormick Shamrock Marbles

Craig, Thanks for your effort to share and educate. Based from your photos, I would agree that three (if not four) of the marbles shown were made from CA cullet or marble fragments. (Top-Bottom & Left-Right): #3, #4, #6 & #7. I would say that the Guinea (#7) was made from marble fragments. The bubbles you can see are tell-tales that Bo was commenting about. Very prevalent in #7 & #8. Especially, those in a string (.........). Based from the out-of-roundness, fractures, and surface condition; I would say these were done by someone very inexperienced. Might even go as far as saying they didn't even have a kiln for annealing. Again, many thanks! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Ahhh! Wildwood. Watch the tram car please! Morey's Pier http://www.moreyspiers.com/ Sea-n-Sun http://www.gotowildwood.com/en/ Thanks Steph! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bob, Are you okay? Can you blink? Sincerely, John

Steph, Absolutely relative to this board and a few threads. Transdisciplinary Social Learning and Cognitive Dissonance are two elements that struck home. Great read, but one has to read it multiple times before sinking in. Kind of like reading a patent. Thanks! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Craig, Thank you. I figured it was part of your email from Don Rios, but didn't know if he communicated with you where he got the information and any more related context. I believe (and I am open to correction) that this list of colors was generated by early CA collectors looking at their marbles (circa 2002). Their goal may have been to determine the full CA color pallet. Another goal would be trying to determine color combinations of a 4-color marble. Some of those reference marbles in collections where guineas, slags, striped transparents and striped opaques. I do not know if "exotic" colors are included in this set. It would be interesting if a sample marble photo was submitted and the colors referenced (e.g., Marble #1 Cobalt Guinea, colors: #36-Cobalt Blue, #1-White, #2-Black, etc.). Also, would be interesting if these colors were then cross-referenced to known Cambridge Glass colors (e.g., #1-White = Carrara 1923). Again, thanks for you help. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Craig, Do you Know the genesis of the last list of colors in your post? I notice they are in a different font. Is this a list of colors generated by CA collectors in their hope to identify all colors and possible permutations and combinations (circa 2002)? That is, that last list is not an actual Arnold Fiedler/CA document of used colors. Thanks. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Steph, Wouldn't argue. Probably just "industrial" marbles. Casters. Reflectors. Agitators. Filtering media. But during that time frame, I would speculate they where hand gathered. Maybe, maybe not. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Akro Agate Co. v. Master Marble Co., 1937 7. That the defense of prior use embodied in the machine known on the record as the Miller-Nivison-Weiskopf machine has been established as required by law; that said machine was built by one W.J. Miller at Swissvale, Pa.; that such machine (shown in Defendants' Exhibit Y) was constructed in 1919 and 1920; was sold and delivered in March, 1920, to the Nivison-Weiskopf Company, of Cincinnati, Ohio; that said machine was put to use by said purchaser in 1921; and that between February 19, 1921, and January, 1924 (as shown by Defendants' Exhibit Z), said purchaser and user of said *316316 machine manufactured on it, and sold, 854,940 marbles in 1921, 474,842 marbles in 1922, and 1,374,075 marbles in 1923, some of such marbles being in evidence as Defendants' Exhibit AA; and that said Miller took out a patent, No. 1,601,699,4 filed December 12, 1924 (Figure 6), which shows this machine and its offset adjustment. Wonder what "Defendants' Exhibit AA" looked like. Marbles produced: 2,703,857. Wonder what these looked like. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bill, Colors attributed directly to A. Fiedler in the book: Jade Green Opal - Akro Agate - 11-1-1923 (Page 106). Lavender Opal - Akro Agate - 10-1-23 (Page 120). Yellow Opal - Akro Agate - 10-1-23 (Page 193). Transparent Green - Original Fiedler Color - Akro Agate - 9-1-23 (Page 324). There is also a formula for: Transparent Selenium Ruby - Christensen Agate - Cambridge O. - 6-20-23 (Page 237). However, there are numerous Cambridge Glass and Akro Glass formulae without direct attribution, that may have been from the hand of Arnold. We'll never know. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bill, Arnold's formulas (at least some) are documented in writing and available today for reproduction. Reference "Henry T. Hellmers' Secret Batch Book of Glass Formulae" by J.W. Courter. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Dave, I think a "lens" is being pressed in the first video. It does look like a dinner plate being weighed in the third video. "Fun"? I would suspect, that after doing this day-in-and-day-out for a month (or less), one would lose the smile off their face. --> --> The "perfect" sphere is quite a misnomer. Marbles I have made can vary 0.001" (min to max) up to 0.015" (min to max). It is all a bell curve distribution. Outliers would be "eggs" and "footballs". Real outliers are "loops" and "lozenges". The marble making equipment today is really no more advanced than 50+ years ago. They all work within the same physics framework. It is how all the variables are "adjusted" that determine the outcomes. Even "new" machines being fabricated today are based on "old" machines. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Below is a video of a Robotic Gatherer. Many things to see. Angle of punty during gather. Rotation of punty during gather. Lift of punty during gather. Acceleration, velocity and deceleration of punty during delivery. Servo shear in one video and a person manually cutting in others. Got to get me one of these!! Did you notice the "tail" being wrapped up during the gather? Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

The outside of the furnace is typically made of red brick and iron bandings for structural purposes. Would also figure the production floor to be of brick. Wheaton Village glass shop. http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g46627-d2202661-i45371288-Wheaton_Village-Millville_New_Jersey.html#last I would figure that the composition of fire brick is pretty much the same today as it was yesterday. Different manufacturers may have different formulations, but they all shot for the same performance envelope. Maybe others have thoughts. One can get "vintage fire brick" off of Ebay and possibly compare. Just need to figure when it was manufactured. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Nothing clean in that video. In that setup, there is an electric kiln. It is common to have refractory debris drop from the lid into the glass. The glory hole is heated with propane. If the gas/atmosphere mix is balanced, then the flame is clean, but one can get a reducing atmosphere. It is not uncommon for the glassworker to hit the opening of the gloryhole with the molten glass item as they move in and out. Doors and windows are open for fresh air and ventilation. Lots of stuff blowing through. Every time the train passes, dust and dirt drop from the rafters. A fleck of junk inside or on the marble surface was probably not enough to cause it to be rejected by the factory. New or old can have the same junk. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bill, So a single cut line (single seam) mib would (or could) have been processed the same way except without the initial "nip", timing the glob drop to start falling just after a passing shear blade? Yes. If you had a singnificant volume of glass on the punty, you could get maybe 2, 3 or more marbles from the same hand gathered glob, with the first one singe a seam or nip/cut mib and the ensuing mibs full doulbe seamers? Because the glass is cooling exponentially, I would not have a problem cut one gob off a punty. The second becomes doable, but problematic. The third is probably out of the question. Whatever is remaining can be reheated. One thing that is not discussed is the formulation of the glass. I wonder what was the "working time" of Cambridge or CA glass. A glass with a longer "working time" is something you can manipulate for a longer time before having to reheat. In an earlier post, I commented about my first attempts at making marbles. I used a Spectrum Cobalt and White. Little did I know at the time, was that the cobalt was extremely hard to work with and had a very short working time. The cobalt cooled quickly and was "crunchy" as I cut it. Go to the store and buy some laffy-taffy. If you cut this with a pair of scissors, you'll know what it feels like when I cut a marble off a punty. You can watch videos of people making hard candy. They keep the candy warm so that it is pliable. Finally, the glass doesn't drop off the punty with a constant cross-section. It is not delivered like a teat on a cow udder, that you can cut into uniform tootsie-roll sections. (That's the beauty of glass flowing through a nozzle.) Due to surface tension, the gob comes off as more of a tear-drop. Watch how quickly Larry moves over to the machine. He is turning the punty, so that the gather winds-up and stays attached. Once he gets to the delivery point, Larry stops turning. Gravity takes over. The gather starts flowing down. Once the gob drop starts to separate from the punty, the cross-section quickly narrows or necks down. I'm trying to find the right spot to cut. Here's the video: Again, the ratio of the gather mass to the punty diameter have an effect on the delivery. A large glass mass to small diameter punty causes the gob to separate quickly as one lump. A very small mass to a large diameter punty will have the gob hang on due to surface tension. Somewhere in the middle is happy land. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Chris, I have a second machine (Mark II) that has larger wheels. Target diameter is 1-1/4" diameter. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Griff, Thanks. Just trying to figure timelines. Do you at least remember the color of the Camaro? LOL! I did the same with my cat and my cat did the same with me. Does Mike Art's brother have a first name? Are they the twins that people talk about or is that another pair of brothers? Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Chris, Sssshhhh! I haven't got to that part of my story yet. I laughed at Hansel's post. He new better. In fact, when I showed him that run of marbles he went straight for a Christmas Marble (red/white/green) in the middle of the gun case. If I remember right, it was the summer 2007 Buckeye show in Columbus, OH. Hard to believe it is coming up on eight years. Time to do it again! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Chris, That was Hansel that posted. I still can't find my copy of your pamphlet. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Hansel, If your question is, "John, have your done this nip and cut into your machine?", then my answer is, "Yes. Yes, I have." Part of Alan's samples (circa 2004) were made using the nip-and-cut. You can see some of the marbles in the photo and match up color lines on either side of the nip. Somewhere buried in a box are those nips. I held onto them as an interesting artifact. Why did I do this? I was trying to figure out why some cut lines differed. What had me puzzled was a marble on page 115 of Bob Block's book (top three pictures). Top left view shows a beautiful loop and a single cut line (at 5:30). Middle right view shows the other side of the marble with a cut-line at 5:30 and a pattern disruption at 10:00. Bottom left view has what I call the nip-line. This line extends to 3:00 where the pattern disruption is in the other view. What was missing was the full on view of the other cut-line. Here is another photo of the same marble: (Photo from Marble Alan Ebay auctions. For educational purposes only.) This photo shows both the nip-line (top left) and the cut-line (top right). Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Mon, Ann and Others, Back in Post #166 and toward the end of my ramblings, I stated: "Finally, I want to point out Howard Jenkin's patent 1,596,879. This invention incorporates a shearing device unlike his previous patent. This device sits atop the machine and has two counter rotating arms with blades on the ends. (I call this the "helicopter" shear.) Above this shear is an arm with a "target" ring for the gatherer to deliver his gob. The helicopter shear makes two revolutions per forming roller set. Now use your imagination, but don't think too hard... The gathering boy has a gob at the end of his punty. He positions the punty end over the delivery ring and lowers the rod. The hot gather starts to drop and the helicopter shear "nips" the leading edge of the gob. The gob drops further and the helicopter shear severs the gob from the body of glass/punty on the next pass. Down it drops into the marble machine to be formed. One gather -- two shear marks. The "first" shear mark is smooth, because there was enough heat at the time of cut to allow it to blend in. The "second" shear mark is more pronounced (visually and with fingernail), because time had elapsed and the surface cooled." --- I used the word "nip" and what I mean is that a very small amount of glass was removed from the gather. It is more like a finger nail clipping. There are a few (or many) CA marbles that exhibit a loop (or circular) pattern on the sides with a small/smooth cut-line and a larger/rough cut-line. Here is an example: (From MarbleAlans auctions. For educational purposes only.) This marble also has quite a few features that make it very interesting. Road and Tunnel feature. Possibly unmelted silica sand particles. Guinea elements at one pole. Forget those, I want you to look at the top left view. In that view, you can see the "smooth" cut-line. Now look at the top right view. In that view, you can see the "rough" cut-line. Back to the top left view. Notice that the "smooth" cut-line is "short". Over to the top right. Notice the "rough" cut-line is "long". So long, that it goes out of view. You can see it continue past the "tunnel" in the bottom left view. The first cut-line is "smooth/short". I want to call this a nip-line. Why, because there was never enough preceding mass of material to sever and form into anything (let alone a marble). The second cut-line is "rough/long". It is this thermal witness mark, from which the gob was severed from the punty. ---- Everyone remember high school geology? Think about a side view of a rock formation and you can see the layers. Imagine a fault line running vertically and how the layers shifted. You can still follow the layers from either side of the fault line. Here are some illustrations: Now, go back up to the marble image and look at the top left view. Imagine the nip-line ("smooth/short") as the fault line. You see, the shearing mechanism severed a small amount of glass off. While doing so, it shifted the glass pattern. Left side down and right side up. Can you match the lines back up? Go look through Alan's pictures in the gallery and see if you can identify others with this "fault line" effect. http://marbleconnection.com/gallery/album/289-christensen-agates-cacs-by-marblealan-mostly/ Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Below could be an example of a CA marble that Galen eludes to if you were to believe he meant that, IMHO. (Photo from MarbleAlan Ebay auction. For educational purposes only.) I think Galen is quite familiar with this one. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"