Shamrock Marbles

Galen: I like to look John, not think(LOL) Maybe thats why I often post with out first thinking (loL) . Darn. I thought you were an intellectual. So, when I read your posts to people asking questions, is there any way I would know if you've actually given it thought or just felt like hearing your keyboard "clack"? For some odd reason, I think you've just told everyone to ignore any of your posts. I do not believe those wrinkles in that marble were pushed in by roller issues, but then I am not sure you are saying they were? Or are you saying the rollers just don't have a chance to smooth out the wrinkles before they cool? but that seemed obvious? The imperfections in the auger/roller will dimple the surface of the glass. The large underlying mass of molten glass is still very fluid as the surface cools. The augers are placing forces to get the sphere to rotate on multiple axis. These forces cause the gob to be "kneaded". This kneading action will shift the surface that is still slightly pliable. Impressions ("dots") on the surface are localized weak zones. Some of the individual "dot" impressions will be merged together as the surface shifts, thus creating various length "ovals", "valleys" or "amoeba" geometries. Larger folding areas are larger collapse zones (I think a PC term is "cold roll marks"). Notice how some of the "longer" wrinkles are parallel to these longer "creases", "seams" or "cold roll marks"? Now, there are other defects not discussed here. Such as, football ends, nipples, rams heads, shear marks, shear tails, etc. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Galen: Way too technical for me. Sorry, it starts taking the fun out of it when I have to think too hard(LOL) So, says they guy that pulls out a high magnification scope studying micro-scratches on the surface of a toy marble in the effort to collect forensic evidence to validate the genesis of said marble? Now that's funny, right there! I have also seen fused glass come out of a kiln that got an orange peel texture. Make sure you're not looking at devitrification. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Steve, I don't know about chasing after something newer will get you any better results. Your base camera is probably more than enough to do the job. The optics (lens) is where I would look along with lighting (spot flash). What Micro lens do you have? The best ever macro pictures of marbles that have been taken and posted on marbles boards, where done almost 15 years ago on 2 mega-pixel platforms. Nikon 950 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp950 Olympus C2020 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3030z Sony F505 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf505 After the camera, the keys are the photographer, lighting and editing. Whenever you see a great photo (of an old exotic), I can guarantee that photographer took dozens of pictures and then spent hours in Photoshop. I wish you the best outcome on your quest! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Galen: That just may be the process??, I think the wrinkles start forming in a fairly narrow time period when the glass starts cooling and the rollers have time to flatten the tops of many of the wrinkles before the marble gets hard. The wrinkle forming must be fairly fast and at a certain time or the wrinkles would be rolled flat or the tops not flattened?? Please don't take offense, but I'm going to let you develop your theory/explanation a little bit more. Here is where I scratch my head... Let's use COE 96 glass. The thermal linear expansion is 9.6x10^-6/K (0.0000096/K). The change in length = L1 x 0.0000096 x (K2 - K1) Assuming the molten glass hits the rollers at 2200F (1478K) and becomes rigid (no longer pliable or mechanically mutable) at 1000F (811K)... A 1-5/16" diameter marble (1.313") would change (1.313 x 0.0000096 x (811 - 1478)) = -0.0084". For argument sake, let's consider that the glass matrix is homogeneous (same throughout). I would presume that all the glass would shrink uniformly and not have zones or pockets of different COE glass. Just having trouble... Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Okay. Let me see... Are you saying that some of the outside layer is cold, but the underlying glass "collapses" or "shrinks" causing some of the glass to pull inward and create valleys?

Galen: Great photos! I can see what you mean. The wrinkling you point out that looks like your finger-tips pruning after being soaked in water for some time. They are not round like a crater on the moon, but more grooved or kidney shaped. Simply, they are dimples that have been distorted from the underlying "soft" glass shifting. Once that top surface develops an impression from the augers and cools, there is nothing the rollers can do to completely smooth out the surface. there are not the scratches inside the wrinkles one would expect to see if it was debris on the rollers causing these wrinkles. I'm not talking about debris on the augers. The augers are pitted from non-uniform oxidation. Next time you're near a machine, take that scope/camera and record the surface. Particularly the first three to four revolutions after the gob landing spot. Now incidental debris/dirt falling onto the rollers can cause impressions. Sometimes that debris hangs on. We've seen it with bits of refractory or fire-brick. But most frequently seen with bits of glass purposefully sprinkled on! The scratches inside the wrinkles comment has me baffled. Can you further explain this smoking gun theory? Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Alan: Chilled glass, including rollers that aren't up to temp. Can you elaborate a little more? My rollers are run at room temperature. Is there a certain temperature at which orange peel disappears? Cheese: I've also been told that if a marble is too big for the rollers it will get orange peel. Yes, that is because the whole surface of the marble comes into contact with the roller. But even, "right-sized" marbles can get orange peel imprints from the rollers. Ann: Sounds reasonable. But I seem to remember some smaller Euro sparklers with orange peel. In which case I'd have to go with the temperature thing. I'll check mine tonight . . . Going back to the premise that lower production numbers of products smaller than 5/8" and larger than 3/4" result in tooling that sits idle and becomes rusty. Add to the fact, that as general production decreased, even 5/8" machines were pushed aside into storage. I'm sure there are a few people here that have walked through a marble facility and see machines sitting on the side in various states of decay. Let's not forget about playing favorites. Machine operators "know" which machines are less prone to down-time and produce the best product with the least hassle. These are their "go-to" machines. If something on this machine breaks, they usually steal a part off one in the bone yard. Machines that are run more are broken in and don't have as rough rollers. When production picks up and they have to pull a machine from storage, what do you think they choose? Obviously, the best machine that runs. Does any modern marble factory have a "surface standard" in their quality requirements. Doubt it. Or they would be throwing away a lot of money. They don't even care if they're round or chipped! Orange peel is not even on their radar. Hi John -- So is it glass temperature, but not related to the temp. of the rollers? Or something off in the glass mix, maybe? Yes, one variable is about the glass temperature. But most glass is delivered to a marble machine in a molten (pliable/plastic) state. The fundamental purpose of the marble forming machine is to spin (on multiple axis) the hot, molten gob of glass into a sphere before it cools and it's shape is locked. Roller temperature does play a roll, but so does the ambient temperature. Even the temperature of the shearing device and any surface the glass comes into contact before hitting the augers. (There are other variables at play also.) Different glasses have different working times. Spectrum cobalt blue gets stiff really quick, but the opaque white stays pliable longer. But neither glasses have a chemistry that give an orange peel surface to a marble. MarbleDawg86 I've noticed on practically all Peltier NLR's there is some degree of an orange peel on the surface, usually not noticeable unless under magnification. It's usually a good way to tell if one has been buffed:polished, as this will remove the orange peel. You bring up a great point. What orange peel are we talking about? Severe enough to be easily seen with the naked eye (20/20) at 12" distance under X lumens? I will concede that even minty marbles have imperfect surfaces under magnification, but are still a direct reflection of the marble machine surface. Griff: What kind of glass do you use,John? Is it similar to the vintage,or something differant? Moretti/Effrette, Spectrum, Bullseye, Kokomo, Youghiogheny, Wissmach, Uroboros, Spruce Pine, Kugler, Reichenbach and various cullet from Gabbert (Fenton red, etc.). Galen: The orange peel I am most familiar with is the type often seen on large Vacors. Under close examination it does not appear to be associated with dirty rollers but more like what happens to some paint as it dries. My scope is not working right now but when I get it going again I will post picture to show what I am talking about. In the mean time here are some roller marks on an absolute Wet Mint CAC. I am familiar with the surface on Vacor boulders. There are two surface characteristics (orange peel and wrinkles). The orange peel on the surface is a direct reflection of the marble auger surface. The wrinkles are from the underlying molten glass shifting and causing the thin cooled surface to fold. Kind of like the folds you see on a Miller swirl or rams head marble. I don't know if Steph's original question was directed at high magnification defects. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

To All: I think the definition of "orange peel" may vary from individual to individual (myself included). Clarifying this may help in the discussion. Photo samples would help. Steph: What Causes Orange Peel? Since this is a marble chat board, I'm assuming you're referring to orange peel on spherical glass marbles as opposed to bottles, plate glass, car paint, etc. Is it glass temperature and cooling rates? Yes, kind-of, but let me develop this a bit more below. Is it something more complicated like the chemistry of the glass involved? I'm sure some chemical imbalance could be at play, but most glass formulae are well established. I wouldn't rule this out, but I would marginalize it to the less than 1% category. Bumblebee: Rough rollers? The definition of "rough rollers" can vary. If you are referring to the commonly found pocked surface ("orange peel") of marble machine augers, then I can agree. It was my assumption orange peel happened due to surfaces on the marble machine, because I've only seen it on very large mibs. I figured the heavier big marbles while still malleable would gather these dimples by virtue of their weight. Just a theory, though. I would agree with your general assessment, but let me run with it a bit more. Hope we can all agree that small and large marbles can get orange peel, but why big marbles more than small ones? A 5/8" marble has a volume of 0.12783 in^3. A 3/4" marble has a volume of 0.22089 in^3 (1.73x larger than a 5/8"). A 1" marble has a volume of 0.5236 in^3 (4.1x larger than a 5/8"). A 1-1/4" marble has a volume of 1.02265 in^3 (8x larger than a 5/8"). [using glass with the same density, a 1" marble weighs 4.1x more than a 5/8".] Just a guess but probably 90% of all marbles run are 5/8" with the remaining 10% of smaller and larger marbles (of which shooter 3/4" are included). Large marbles (say over 3/4") are infrequently run, because they are expensive to produce and the demand wasn't there. This meant that marble rounding machines for large spheres where mostly idle throughout the year. Rounding augers are made of steel. The environments of Illinois, Ohio and West Virginia vary wildly from Winter to Summer. An idle marble machine would warm up from the heat of mid-Summer day. As the sun fell and the air and marble machine cooled, the moist, humid summer air would condense on the surface of the augers. This surface water would evaporate the next day as the temperature rose. Little-by-little, oxides (rust) would form on the steel surface. The rust doesn't form evenly, but becomes micro-localized and develops an orange peel surface. https://abhsscience.wikispaces.com/Rusting+SB When it comes time to dust off the large machine for a run, the operators have to decide how to clean the auger grooves. Use a wire brush to knock off most of the rust on the surface, then run a bunch of glass through to get the remainder down in the little pockets/pits? I'm sure people have seen the first marbles come off a new run and there is rust on the marble surface for a while. The machine in the above photos is the Jabo machine at Wheaton Village before Scott Meyer reconditioned her. After the machine was rehabbed, they ran some samples across the rollers. Those samples exhibit extreme orange peel. Block auctioned a few of these and photos do exist (maybe someone can post?). All small and large glass gobs are molten as they are delivered to the augers. At the moment the gob touches the augers, the surface of the molten glass gets imprinted with the texture of the roller. However, the weight of a large marble does force the glass against the roller surface more than a smaller volume/weight gob. Larger marble=heavier weight=deeper impression. Smaller marble=lighter weight=lighter impression. Once imprinted, it can't be removed. I like watching people run a torch across the marbles as they run down the auger in the hopes of rounding a marble or smoothing the surface. The results of combusting gas (propane or other hydrocarbons) are CO2 and H2O (water). Yes, hot water is being blasted onto the steel augers below. And yes, surface rust forms instantaneously. Those marbles will have a light copper looking rust on the surface. I've got to run for now... Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

No secret here. My rollers run at room temperature. Pretty smooth and minty marble surfaces. Sincerely, John McCormick Shamrock Marbles

Hey Tall, Try Moon Marble. www.moonmarble.com 12 small stands for $3.60 ($0.30 each). https://www.moonmarble.com/p-1748-plastic-marble-stands-by-the-dozen.aspx or Land of Marbles http://www.landofmarbles.com/pc/s024/marble-storage-and-display.html $0.37 each for a qty of 50. Good luck! John McCormick Shamrock Marbles

Craig, Thanks for your effort to share and educate. Based from your photos, I would agree that three (if not four) of the marbles shown were made from CA cullet or marble fragments. (Top-Bottom & Left-Right): #3, #4, #6 & #7. I would say that the Guinea (#7) was made from marble fragments. The bubbles you can see are tell-tales that Bo was commenting about. Very prevalent in #7 & #8. Especially, those in a string (.........). Based from the out-of-roundness, fractures, and surface condition; I would say these were done by someone very inexperienced. Might even go as far as saying they didn't even have a kiln for annealing. Again, many thanks! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Ahhh! Wildwood. Watch the tram car please! Morey's Pier http://www.moreyspiers.com/ Sea-n-Sun http://www.gotowildwood.com/en/ Thanks Steph! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bob, Are you okay? Can you blink? Sincerely, John

Steph, Absolutely relative to this board and a few threads. Transdisciplinary Social Learning and Cognitive Dissonance are two elements that struck home. Great read, but one has to read it multiple times before sinking in. Kind of like reading a patent. Thanks! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Craig, Thank you. I figured it was part of your email from Don Rios, but didn't know if he communicated with you where he got the information and any more related context. I believe (and I am open to correction) that this list of colors was generated by early CA collectors looking at their marbles (circa 2002). Their goal may have been to determine the full CA color pallet. Another goal would be trying to determine color combinations of a 4-color marble. Some of those reference marbles in collections where guineas, slags, striped transparents and striped opaques. I do not know if "exotic" colors are included in this set. It would be interesting if a sample marble photo was submitted and the colors referenced (e.g., Marble #1 Cobalt Guinea, colors: #36-Cobalt Blue, #1-White, #2-Black, etc.). Also, would be interesting if these colors were then cross-referenced to known Cambridge Glass colors (e.g., #1-White = Carrara 1923). Again, thanks for you help. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Craig, Do you Know the genesis of the last list of colors in your post? I notice they are in a different font. Is this a list of colors generated by CA collectors in their hope to identify all colors and possible permutations and combinations (circa 2002)? That is, that last list is not an actual Arnold Fiedler/CA document of used colors. Thanks. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Steph, Wouldn't argue. Probably just "industrial" marbles. Casters. Reflectors. Agitators. Filtering media. But during that time frame, I would speculate they where hand gathered. Maybe, maybe not. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Akro Agate Co. v. Master Marble Co., 1937 7. That the defense of prior use embodied in the machine known on the record as the Miller-Nivison-Weiskopf machine has been established as required by law; that said machine was built by one W.J. Miller at Swissvale, Pa.; that such machine (shown in Defendants' Exhibit Y) was constructed in 1919 and 1920; was sold and delivered in March, 1920, to the Nivison-Weiskopf Company, of Cincinnati, Ohio; that said machine was put to use by said purchaser in 1921; and that between February 19, 1921, and January, 1924 (as shown by Defendants' Exhibit Z), said purchaser and user of said *316316 machine manufactured on it, and sold, 854,940 marbles in 1921, 474,842 marbles in 1922, and 1,374,075 marbles in 1923, some of such marbles being in evidence as Defendants' Exhibit AA; and that said Miller took out a patent, No. 1,601,699,4 filed December 12, 1924 (Figure 6), which shows this machine and its offset adjustment. Wonder what "Defendants' Exhibit AA" looked like. Marbles produced: 2,703,857. Wonder what these looked like. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bill, Colors attributed directly to A. Fiedler in the book: Jade Green Opal - Akro Agate - 11-1-1923 (Page 106). Lavender Opal - Akro Agate - 10-1-23 (Page 120). Yellow Opal - Akro Agate - 10-1-23 (Page 193). Transparent Green - Original Fiedler Color - Akro Agate - 9-1-23 (Page 324). There is also a formula for: Transparent Selenium Ruby - Christensen Agate - Cambridge O. - 6-20-23 (Page 237). However, there are numerous Cambridge Glass and Akro Glass formulae without direct attribution, that may have been from the hand of Arnold. We'll never know. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bill, Arnold's formulas (at least some) are documented in writing and available today for reproduction. Reference "Henry T. Hellmers' Secret Batch Book of Glass Formulae" by J.W. Courter. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Dave, I think a "lens" is being pressed in the first video. It does look like a dinner plate being weighed in the third video. "Fun"? I would suspect, that after doing this day-in-and-day-out for a month (or less), one would lose the smile off their face. --> --> The "perfect" sphere is quite a misnomer. Marbles I have made can vary 0.001" (min to max) up to 0.015" (min to max). It is all a bell curve distribution. Outliers would be "eggs" and "footballs". Real outliers are "loops" and "lozenges". The marble making equipment today is really no more advanced than 50+ years ago. They all work within the same physics framework. It is how all the variables are "adjusted" that determine the outcomes. Even "new" machines being fabricated today are based on "old" machines. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Below is a video of a Robotic Gatherer. Many things to see. Angle of punty during gather. Rotation of punty during gather. Lift of punty during gather. Acceleration, velocity and deceleration of punty during delivery. Servo shear in one video and a person manually cutting in others. Got to get me one of these!! Did you notice the "tail" being wrapped up during the gather? Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

The outside of the furnace is typically made of red brick and iron bandings for structural purposes. Would also figure the production floor to be of brick. Wheaton Village glass shop. http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g46627-d2202661-i45371288-Wheaton_Village-Millville_New_Jersey.html#last I would figure that the composition of fire brick is pretty much the same today as it was yesterday. Different manufacturers may have different formulations, but they all shot for the same performance envelope. Maybe others have thoughts. One can get "vintage fire brick" off of Ebay and possibly compare. Just need to figure when it was manufactured. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Nothing clean in that video. In that setup, there is an electric kiln. It is common to have refractory debris drop from the lid into the glass. The glory hole is heated with propane. If the gas/atmosphere mix is balanced, then the flame is clean, but one can get a reducing atmosphere. It is not uncommon for the glassworker to hit the opening of the gloryhole with the molten glass item as they move in and out. Doors and windows are open for fresh air and ventilation. Lots of stuff blowing through. Every time the train passes, dust and dirt drop from the rafters. A fleck of junk inside or on the marble surface was probably not enough to cause it to be rejected by the factory. New or old can have the same junk. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"

Bill, So a single cut line (single seam) mib would (or could) have been processed the same way except without the initial "nip", timing the glob drop to start falling just after a passing shear blade? Yes. If you had a singnificant volume of glass on the punty, you could get maybe 2, 3 or more marbles from the same hand gathered glob, with the first one singe a seam or nip/cut mib and the ensuing mibs full doulbe seamers? Because the glass is cooling exponentially, I would not have a problem cut one gob off a punty. The second becomes doable, but problematic. The third is probably out of the question. Whatever is remaining can be reheated. One thing that is not discussed is the formulation of the glass. I wonder what was the "working time" of Cambridge or CA glass. A glass with a longer "working time" is something you can manipulate for a longer time before having to reheat. In an earlier post, I commented about my first attempts at making marbles. I used a Spectrum Cobalt and White. Little did I know at the time, was that the cobalt was extremely hard to work with and had a very short working time. The cobalt cooled quickly and was "crunchy" as I cut it. Go to the store and buy some laffy-taffy. If you cut this with a pair of scissors, you'll know what it feels like when I cut a marble off a punty. You can watch videos of people making hard candy. They keep the candy warm so that it is pliable. Finally, the glass doesn't drop off the punty with a constant cross-section. It is not delivered like a teat on a cow udder, that you can cut into uniform tootsie-roll sections. (That's the beauty of glass flowing through a nozzle.) Due to surface tension, the gob comes off as more of a tear-drop. Watch how quickly Larry moves over to the machine. He is turning the punty, so that the gather winds-up and stays attached. Once he gets to the delivery point, Larry stops turning. Gravity takes over. The gather starts flowing down. Once the gob drop starts to separate from the punty, the cross-section quickly narrows or necks down. I'm trying to find the right spot to cut. Here's the video: Again, the ratio of the gather mass to the punty diameter have an effect on the delivery. A large glass mass to small diameter punty causes the gob to separate quickly as one lump. A very small mass to a large diameter punty will have the gob hang on due to surface tension. Somewhere in the middle is happy land. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles"