Messrs. Martin F. Christensen And Horace H. Hill Ask For Help...

[Shamrock Marbles]

...from their government.

Martin F. Christensen's letter (February 3, 1909):

http://books.google....STENSEN&f=false

Horace C. Hill's letter (January 25, 1913):

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Enjoy!

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[spara50]

Great information. It seems the labor rates might be a tad inflated. I interviewed an Akro Agate employee who worked there from 1934 to 36 and he made 35 cents and hour or $2.80 a day. It's hard to believe that 20 years before that it was $4 a day. But no wonder the German marbles were so cheap, $4.75 a WEEK for 12 hour days. Yikes.

I wonder if the marble grinders mentioned put the ground and faceted pontils on the finished marbles? Thanks for the post, great insight to how far along marble making was in the US even in 1912.

Craig

[Speed Racer]

Didn't I already read this in Stephanie's Study Hall here @ Lou's? Pardon me if I am mistaken.

[Shamrock Marbles]

Nope, I don't think you missed anything, but I'm sure others have.

There's a ton of great info buried in her hard work.

Maybe once in a while someone should link one of the topics back to the General Board to create traffic and discussion?

Here's the link to Steph's Study Hall:

http://marbleconnection.com/topic/10991-mfc-timeline/page__p__93678__hl__tariff__fromsearch__1#entry93678

Back to the subject at hand...

Don't you find it ironic that the Man who brought us marble-making automation (to reduce labor and increase production) is still asking for help to compete?

Willie G. would be proud of him!

Also, was the actual tariff increased per Martin's request? Or did it stay the same?

Finally, why would you ask for protection when your product is significantly different that what was being imported?

Thanks!

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[jlmoriarty]

"Finally, why would you ask for protection when your product is significantly different that what was being imported?"

One word, John, competition. While they are different to us they were probably seen as competition to the domestic manufacturers. Or maybe to put your question slightly differently, I wonder how many people collected marbles vs. used them for play 'back in the day'?

John

[Steph]

Great information. It seems the labor rates might be a tad inflated. I interviewed an Akro Agate employee who worked there from 1934 to 36 and he made 35 cents and hour or $2.80 a day. It's hard to believe that 20 years before that it was $4 a day. But no wonder the German marbles were so cheap, $4.75 a WEEK for 12 hour days. Yikes.

I wonder if the marble grinders mentioned put the ground and faceted pontils on the finished marbles? Thanks for the post, great insight to how far along marble making was in the US even in 1912.

Craig

Not saying Horace Hill wouldn't have exaggerated, but it seems theoretically possible that it could have been higher earlier. Couple of possible factors come to mind:

Wasn't Martin Christensen known to have paid especially good wages?

And what effect did the depression have on wages?

So ... who has MFC's account books?

[Shamrock Marbles]

John,

Thanks for the feedback.

My understanding of what was coming from Germany would have been Cane-Cut (Latts, Indians, Onionskins, etc.), Swirls with ground pontils, sulphides, stone agates, clay and painted chinas.

Please forgive me if I missed something.

Mr. Strobel states in his letter opposing the tariff, "Glass marbles that are imported are entirely different styles than those made in the United States."

Mr. Strobel also iterates that he sells both German and US marbles. Wouldn't this give him a strong perspective about the differences in glass marbles?

I would suspect that the finish quality and roundness of the MFC marbles was superior to those made in Germany. Would that be a fair guess?

Also, were the MFC slags that much different in appearance than German Slags?

Was the color and clarity of MFC glass more appealing?

There would be no doubt that MFC Bricks stood out from the competition.

Did kids shoot with those glass German mades? I figured that they were keepers to show friends.

I thought most marbles at the time that were played with would have been real Agates (for the shooter) and Clay Commies.

When did kids use glass marbles in the ring?

Did rich kids play with glass and poor kids play with clay?

If you are playing for keeps, would you put your pretty glass marbles out while your competition puts out their clays?

Did Martin ask for more knowing that if he got nothing extra, that at least the existing tariff would stay in effect?

Surely during WWI, with German imports stopped, the US marble market took off without any competition and glass companies like Akro flourished.

Just trying to figure it out.

Again, John thanks for the feedback.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Steph,

Yep, Horace Hill was one to trust. Especially when it came to accounting.

Figures lie and Liars figure!

Is there any information in Cohill's MFC book that would confirm that these numbers are correct?

Thanks,

John

[Speed Racer]

Mr. Strobel states in his letter opposing the tariff, "Glass marbles that are imported are entirely different styles than those made in the United States."

Were they only referring to Germany? Maybe at the time, but it is cool that they already understood about fair trade policies and the value of a nickel. Also, marbles were called marbles for a reason. The same goes for casters. They are in a group by themselves, all of them, whether cane cut or common machine slags, they were all sold together at the local stores and the ones with the lowest prices (foreign) likely outsold the more expensive (American) which scared them (MFC) as much then as it scares us now.

Did kids shoot with those glass German mades? I figured that they were keepers to show friends.

I thought most marbles at the time that were played with would have been real Agates (for the shooter) and Clay Commies.

I find it extremely difficult (myself) to find mint examples from these companies from this period.

Keepers then or keepers now?

[jlmoriarty]

I think Roger has it right. Add to the equation a healthy dose of isolationism, which has a long history in our country, and I think you have the picture.

[Speed Racer]

Apparently there was a certain law and order laid out early on...but boys will be boys...

" A writer in Notes and Queries(IX. ii. 314) thus describes the marbles used by English boys in the middle of the 19th century: " In ring-taw the player put only commoneys in the ring, and shot with the taws, which included stoneys, alleys and bloodalleys. Commoneys were unglazed; potteys glazed in the kiln. Stoneys were made from common pebbles such as were used for road-mending; alleys and blood-alleys out of marble. The bloodalleys were highly prized, and were called by this name because of the spots or streaks of red in them. In Derbyshire, where large numbers were made, they had relative values. The stoney was worth three commoneys or two potteys. An alley was worth six commoneys or four potteys. Blood-alleys were worth more, according to the depth and arrangement of colour - from twelve to fifty commoneys and stoneys in proportion." " A taw with a history was prized above rubies," another correspondent observes (IX. ii. 76). " All the best-made marbles were taws, and no commoneys or potteys were used for shooting with, either in ring-taw or the various hole-games." In Belfast, 1854-1858, the marble season extended from Easter to June, when the ground was usually dry and hard. The marbles were stoneys, of composition painted; crockeries, of slightly glazed stone-ware, dark brown and yellow; clayeys, of red brick clay baked in the fire; marbles, of white marble; china alleys, with white glaze and painted rings; and glass marbles. The two chief games were ring-taw and hole and taw; in the latter three holes were made in a line, 6 ft. to 12 ft. apart, and the player had to go three times up and down according to somewhat elaborate rules (Notes and Queries,IX. iii. 65). The stoneys and crockeries were sold at twenty a penny; the clayeys were cheaper and were not used as stakes; the marbles proper and china alleys, used as taws for shooting, cost a halfpenny and a farthing respectively. In other parts of the country the phraseology of marbles affords some interesting problems for the philologist. We hear of " alleys, barios, poppos and stoneys "; of " marididdles," home-made marbles of rolled and baked clay; in Scotland of " bools, whinnies, glassies, jauries "; of " Dutch alleys," and so forth. " Dubs, trebs and fobs," stand for twos, threes and fours. To be " mucked " is to lose all one's " mivvies " or marbles. When the taw stayed in the ring it was a " chuck." " Phobbo slips " was a phrase used to forbid the correction of an error."

[Shamrock Marbles]

Roger,

That is really neat reading!

Thanks!

Sincerely,

John

[ann]

" A writer in Notes and Queries(IX. ii. 314) thus describes the marbles used by English boys in the middle of the 19th century: "

And keep in mind that apparently glass marbles were a novelty in Europe in the middle of the 19th century, being new then, as best we currently know. Most of the ones we know and love now can't be securely dated (with a few exceptions) before the 1860s.

[Speed Racer]

Actually a lot earlier, here's the whole article...

MARBLES, a children's game of great antiquity, wide distribution, and uncertain origin, played with small spheres of stone, glass, baked clay or other material, from one-third of an inch to two inches in diameter. The game was once popular with all classes. Tradition, both at Oxford and Cambridge, attests that the game was formerly prohibited among undergraduates on the steps of the Bodleian or the Senate House. There is a similar tradition at Westminster School that the boys were forbidden to play marbles in Westminster Hall on account of the complaints made by members of parliament and lawyers. An anonymous poem of the 17th century speaks of a boy about to leave Eton as " A dunce at syntax, but a dab at taw." Rogers, in The Pleasures of Memory, recalls how " On yon grey stone that fronts the chancel-door, Worn smooth by busy feet, now seen no more, Each eve we shot the marble through the ring." Defoe (1720) writes of the seer Duncan Campbell: " Marbles, which he used to call children's playing at bowls, yielded him mighty diversion; and he was so dexterous an artist at shooting that little alabaster globe from between the end of his forefinger and the knuckle of his thumb, that he seldom missed hitting plumb, as the boys call it, the marble he aimed at, though at the distance of two or three yards." The locus classicus on marbles in the 19th century is in the trial in Pickwick, where Serjeant Buzfuz pathetically says of Master Bardell that " his `alley tors ' and his ' commoneys ' are alike neglected; he forgets the long familiar cry of ' knuckle down,' and at tip-cheese, or odd and even, his hand is out." Many similar passages might be adduced to prove the former popularity of marbles with the young of all classes. In some rural parts of Sussex Good Friday was known as " marble-day " till late in the 10th century, since on that day both old and young, including many who would never have thought of playing marbles at other times, took part in the game. There was some traditional reason for regarding marbles as a Lenten sport - perhaps, as the Rev. W. D. Parish suggests, " to keep people from more boisterous and mischievous enjoyments." The origin of the game is concealed in the mists of antiquity. Marbles used by Egyptian and Roman children before the Christian era are to be seen in the British Museum. Probably some of the small stone spheres found among neolithic remains, which Evans (Ancient Stone Implements, 2nd ed., p. 420) admits to be too small for projectiles, are prehistoric marbles. It is commonly assumed that the game which the youthful Augustus, like other Roman children, played with nuts was a form of marbles, and that the Latin phrase of relinquere nuces, in the sense of putting away childish things, referred to this game. Strutt believed that nuts of the roundest sort were the original " marbles." The earliest unmistakable reference to marbles in literature seems to be in a French poem of the 12th century, quoted by Littre s.v. Bille. The marbles with which various games are nowadays played are small spheres of stone, glass or baked clay. In the 18th century they were mostly made from chips of marble (whence the name) or other stone, which were ground into a roughly spherical shape by attrition in a special iron mill. Nuremberg was then the centre of the trade in marbles, though some were made in Derbyshire, and indeed wherever there was a stonemason's yard to afford raw material. The " alley taw," as its name indicates, was made of alabaster. In the first decade of the 10th century English marbles were all imported from central Germany, and the alleys, or most valuable marbles, used for shooting, were mostly made of coloured glass, sold retail from ten a penny to a penny each. Coloured stone marbles and so-called china marbles - really of baked clay - were sold at prices varying from forty to a hundred a penny, though even the cheapest. of these were painted by hand with concentric rings. The well-made and highly valued alleys of earlier tin: es were no longer procurable, owing to the decline in popularity of the sport. In the United States, however,. much more expensive and accurately rounded marbles were still manufactured, the latest being of hollow steel. There has never been any recognized authority on the game of marbles, and it is probable that, in the past as in the present, every parish and school and set of boys made its own rules. There are, however, three or four distinct games which are traditional, and may be found, with trifling variations, wherever the game is played. Strutt, writing at the end of the 18th century, describes these as follows: (1) " Taw, wherein a number of boys put each of them one or two marbles in a ring and shoot at them alternately with other marbles, and he who obtains the most of them by beating them out of the ring is the conqueror." The marbles placed in the ring - whence the game is often known as " ring-taw " - are usually of the cheaper kind known as " commoneys," "stoneys " or " potteys," and the marble with which the player shoots is a more valuable one, known as an "alley”or " alley taw," sometimes spelt " tor," as by Dickens. Usually it is necessary that the alley should emerge from the ring as well as drive out another marble; under other rules the ring is smaller, not more than a foot in diameter, and the player must be skilful enough to leave his alley inside it, whilst driving the object marble outside. (2) " Nine holes: which consists in bowling of marbles at a wooden bridge with nine arches." Each arch bears a number, and the owner of the bridge pays that number of marbles to the player who shoots through it, making his profit from the missing marbles, which he confiscates; or the game may simply be played so many up - usually 100. (3) " There is also another game of marbles where four, five or six holes, and sometimes more, are made in the ground at a distance from each other; and the business of every one of the players is to bowl a marble by a regular succession into all the holes, which he who completes in the fewest bowls obtains the victory." This primitive form of golf is played by Zulu adults with great enthusiasm, and is still popular among the car-drivers of Belfast. (4) " Boss out, or boss and span, also called hit and span, wherein one bowls a marble to any distance that he pleases, which serves as a mark for his antagonist to bowl at, whose business it is to hit the marble first bowled, or lay his own near enough to it for him to span the space between them and touch both marbles; in either case he wins, if not, his marble remains where it lay and becomes a mark for the first player, and so alternately until the game be won." In rural parts of England this was known as a " going-to-school game," because it helped the players along the road.

Mr F. W. Hackwood states that, in the middle of the 19th century, taverns in the Black Country had regular marble alleys, consisting of a cement bed 20 ft. long by 12 ft. wide and 18 in. from the ground, with a raised wooden rim to prevent the marbles from running off. Players knelt down to shoot, and had to " knuckle down " fairly - i.e. to place the knuckle of the shooting hand on the ground, so that the flip of the thumb was not aided by a jerk of the wrist. The game was usually ring-taw. But marbles is now obsolete in England as a game for adults (Old English Sports, London, 1907).

A writer in Notes and Queries (IX. ii. 314) thus describes the marbles used by English boys in the middle of the 19th century: " In ring-taw the player put only commoneys in the ring, and shot with the taws, which included stoneys, alleys and bloodalleys. Commoneys were unglazed; potteys glazed in the kiln. Stoneys were made from common pebbles such as were used for road-mending; alleys and blood-alleys out of marble. The bloodalleys were highly prized, and were called by this name because of the spots or streaks of red in them. In Derbyshire, where large numbers were made, they had relative values. The stoney was worth three commoneys or two potteys. An alley was worth six commoneys or four potteys. Blood-alleys were worth more, according to the depth and arrangement of colour - from twelve to fifty commoneys and stoneys in proportion." " A taw with a history was prized above rubies," another correspondent observes (IX. ii. 76). " All the best-made marbles were taws, and no commoneys or potteys were used for shooting with, either in ring-taw or the various hole-games." In Belfast, 1854-1858, the marble season extended from Easter to June, when the ground was usually dry and hard. The marbles were stoneys, of composition painted; crockeries, of slightly glazed stone-ware, dark brown and yellow; clayeys, of red brick clay baked in the fire; marbles, of white marble; china alleys, with white glaze and painted rings; and glass marbles. The two chief games were ring-taw and hole and taw; in the latter three holes were made in a line, 6 ft. to 12 ft. apart, and the player had to go three times up and down according to somewhat elaborate rules (Notes and Queries, IX. iii. 65). The stoneys and crockeries were sold at twenty a penny; the clayeys were cheaper and were not used as stakes; the marbles proper and china alleys, used as taws for shooting, cost a halfpenny and a farthing respectively. In other parts of the country the phraseology of marbles affords some interesting problems for the philologist. We hear of " alleys, barios, poppos and stoneys "; of " marididdles," home-made marbles of rolled and baked clay; in Scotland of " bools, whinnies, glassies, jauries "; of " Dutch alleys," and so forth. " Dubs, trebs and fobs," stand for twos, threes and fours. To be " mucked " is to lose all one's " mivvies " or marbles. When the taw stayed in the ring it was a " chuck." " Phobbo slips " was a phrase used to forbid the correction of an error.

The fullest account of the various games of marbles played by English children is to be found in Mrs Gomme's Traditional Games of England, Scotland and Ireland (London, 1898), under the headings Boss-out, Bridgeboard, Bun-hole, Cob, Ho-go, Holy Bang, Hundreds, Lag, Long-Tawl, Marbles, Nine-Holes, Ring-taw, Three-Holes. Other games are known as Plum-pudding, or Picking the Plums, in which one shoots at marbles in a row; Pyramids, in which the marbles are arranged in a pyramid; Bounce About, Bounce Eye, Conqueror, Die Shot, Fortifications, Handers, Increase Pound, Knock Out, Rising Taw, Spanners, Tip-shears; Strutt's Sports and Pastimes, ed. J. C. Cox (London, 1902). Much information will also be found in Notes and Queries, passim - especially the 9th series. For marbles in France see Larousse, s.v. Billes. See also SOLITAIRE. (W. E. G. F.)

[ann]

Actually a lot earlier, here's the whole article...

Not saying the first glass marbles ever. I'm talking about the mid-nineteenth century.

Aside from that, glass marbles were very rare in any period -- and some that people have termed "marbles" might more accurately be described as "game pieces." We don't actually know how some of them were used.

[Speed Racer]

"When did kids use glass marbles in the ring?"

Sorry, I was referring to the question asked earlier Ann.

~R

[ann]

Gotcha.