Vitros: White Blackies Vs Black Whities

[Ric]

I've been looking at my Vitros, which don't get much attention in my house, and I've been comparing what I had separated as White Blackies and Black Whities. This separation was initially based primarily on the lots that the marbles came in - a lot with many Whities and no Blackies, or vice versa, would land the black-ribboned marble along with the rest. And these marbles do appear more at home in one group than the other. It seems that the white base on Blackies is not as bright as that on Whities, and as far as I can tell, the black ribbons are often more thinly applied on the Blackies as well. Does anyone else have other suggestions? Would any one have an idea about the relative numbers of these produced?

Thanks,

-Ric

[MARBLEMISER]

I've been looking at my Vitros, which don't get much attention in my house, and I've been comparing what I had separated as White Blackies and Black Whities. This separation was initially based primarily on the lots that the marbles came in - a lot with many Whities and no Blackies, or vice versa, would land the black-ribboned marble along with the rest. And these marbles do appear more at home in one group than the other. It seems that the white base on Blackies is not as bright as that on Whities, and as far as I can tell, the black ribbons are often more thinly applied on the Blackies as well. Does anyone else have other suggestions? Would any one have an idea about the relative numbers of these produced?

Thanks,

-Ric

Pictures would be nice. So we could see what you see>

Thanks

marblemiser

[Ric]

Yeah, I know Glitter Man . . . sorry! But my camera's off on another mission at the moment. I'll try to get some up a bit later today. Thanks, -Ric

[Ric]

Here's a pic with representative kin. -Ric

[MC Marbles]

FWIW

Black banded are blackies.

color bands on white opaque base are whities.

Color bands & white on clear base are a tiger-eye sub-catagory

Mark

Edit...The green banded w blue is neat!!!

[Ric]

Mark, You are correct. But these are all Blackies or Whities. I propose there are black Whities and white Blackies in this group. Of course, they're both white based with black bands - do they look the same to you? -Ric

[MC Marbles]

I Was trying to keep it simple. :Party_fest30:

In my case... I feel if it has a black ribbon it is a Blackie.

This can be hotly debated however. (Been there, argued that. LOL)

There are some dark purple banded (Look Black) on white which I call a Whitie.

You can call them as you see them. Neat Vitros.

Mark

[sissydear]

There are company ads that show the black banded on white base to be blackies. Edna

[Ric]

Thanks Edna, I knew there are white Blackies. That is, Blackies that are missing the color patches. And I imagine that those marbles were produced using the same white base as the rest of the Blackies. I also believe that Vitro would have used a less expensive white for the base on these marbles, since it most often completely covered anyways. On the other hand, the whities are largely white, and I propose that the base on those marbles is a higher quality white than used on Blackies, since it made up the majority of the marbles surface. I also propose that Vitro made black Whities. Do you know anything about that? I know you have a considerable number of both types, would you mind comparing the white bases and letting me know what you think? Thanks Again, -Ric

[sissydear]

I am on a Spring Break trip with my grandson so it will be a while before I am with my marbles to answer you Ric. Edna

[Steph]

I have been told by someone with beaucoups Vitro bags that the same type of white marble with black bands was sold in both whities and blackies bags.

Someone else, who had two different looking white Vitros with black bands, proposed that one was a white blackie and one a black whitie. But I believe the bag owner's position would be that such a division would not make sense, that one would find a range of types of black even in whities bags.

One certainly would in blackies bags. Look at the range of "black" simply on the blackies you show here:

Pick another color. Say blue. What range of blue do you find on your whities? The few you have showing suggest to me that there might be much variation in any "single" color.

If I understand correctly, quality control was not job 1 in the Vitro factory. Or not the sort of quality control which would result in consistently higher quality in one marble type than there was in another marble type made in, say, the same month.

[Ric]

O.K. It just seemed to make sense to me that if white Blackies were run with the other Blackies, the white base might be cheaper glass, since it would normally be covered anyway. OTOH, if black Whities were run with the rest of the Whities, I might expect a better quality of white base glass to be used on them, since most of the marble was white. And while you are correct that there is much variation of non-white color within each group, I am not so sure that the same can be said for the base glass, at least in those that I have. Compare, for example, row 1 marble 3 to row 2 marble 4, and also, marble 1 in rows 3 & 4 to marble 2 in row 3. I think the base is distinctly different, at least in hand. If not, then do we call all white-based black-ribboned marbles Blackies, even if they are in Whitie packaging? Or maybe we just don't classify them as Whities or Blackies, since you can't tell them apart? I didn't think these two types were made at the same time, but of course, I could be wrong on that. Thanks, -Ric

[Steph]

There are some things I also wonder about.

Some of the whities do look different to me. As if possibly they are not veneered marbles (*said with caution*). I do not fully undertand the the meaning of the term "veneer" as used by marble companies. But some do look different, whatever the name of the process by which they were made. I'm thinking about the ones with the deeper, transparent ribbons. Yet the blue blackie just left of center in your photograph seems to have some depth to the black ribbon.

If Whities started out before Blackies then that might explain the difference on that one variation. I suspect the during the time of their overlap they would have had the same type base glass, or for most of the time of overlap anyway. On the other hand, if they had different base glass, some of one type could still get into bags of the other type because if Vitro employees were running low on anything they would make do.

I think it is that general casualness, at least in part, which makes my friend with the beaucoups bags disinclined to find much percentage in trying to pin down which is a white blackie and which is a black whitie.

I need to confirm/review some of this. I'm reporting on and extrapolating from discussions partly about blackies but mostly of other types, so I need to go back and see if I'm overgeneralizing or plain old speaking out of turn.

I also need to double check when Whities and Blackies were made: which came first, how long each was made, and perhaps a comparison between # of blackies made and # of whities. Some info comes from ads. Some inferences are drawn from headers on bags. Some comes from Vitro employees. Etc. ?? Some simply isn't known.

[Ric]

Thanks Steph, The only real info I have on a timeline is from AMMM, where they suggest that Whities are a later addition to the Vitro line than Blackies. And I agree with you . . . some of the Whities have pretty deep ribbons, but I'm not sure they all do. As for "the blue blackie just left of center in your photograph", that one is as on the surface as all the others - just more thickly applied. In fact, I don't think I've seen any Blackies with any real depth to the ribbons. -Ric

[Steph]

Ah, I see that in AMMM about blackies coming first. I also see that I pretty much repeated what you were saying about depth of color and such, and you're being very polite about not saying, WELL DUH :-) Sorry, my brain has been somewhere else.

FWIW the earliest Blackies might not be Blackies as we know them so just knowing dates, like from a dated price sheet, might not be enough for making judgements about when different styles were made. I think these may be some of the earliest. Derrick's bag. He says they're transparent inside.

[Ric]

Yeah, I've seen a few of those - pretty Tiger Eye-like, IMHO, which makes me think they might be earlier than the more commonly referred to Blackies. -Ric

[Steph]

There are Whities with that sort of header, though a silver or gray background, not red. These appear to have the rich ribbons. They are pictured in an ad with Blackies, Cat Eyes, and Aqua Jewels. The presence of cat eyes date the ad to 1954 or later.

Maybe as the Blackies came closer to what we think of as Blackies, the Whities became closer to what we think of as Blackies also. (pure conjecture)

This was in a very very very cost-conscious time. (not conjecture)

If the super nice seeming whities were made intentionally with a better white base at first, it would make sense for that to be considered less important in 1955 and later, as Vitro was battening down the hatches against the Japanese Cat Eye storm.

As it was, All-Reds cost twice as much as Japanese Cat Eyes in 1960. So, if Whities cost even more to make, then (a) it's not surprising that they didn't last long, and (b ) it wouldn't be surprising if their quality declined before they were discontinued.

p.s., two Vitro time-line threads I am/was/might be working on:

Vitro Time Line (with info from the Vitro book)

Vitro Bag Headers