Pinch Pontil?

[cat's eye jack]

5/8" single vane in green glass..folds on each end, is this a pinch pontil???

[manddrakes]

I will say no... Thanks Mike.

[ann]

5/8" single vane in green glass..folds on each end, is this a pinch pontil???

I don't want to get into an arguement about words here (no fight! no fight!), but the term pinch pontil is usually used with only older marbles ("transitionals" and their close kin), and not with machine-mades after 1950 or so, when cat's-eyes hit the market. Not sure you can use the word "pontil" for a seam on a purely machine-made mib, for that matter, although I guess you could argue about it. Of course. The transitionals (and some later Japanese-made hand-gathered swirls) have an actual pontil, or punty, or metal-rod-that-gathers-the-glass, or whatever (No, please don't start, no, not again! I read all those posts too!) associated with their creation, even though some (maybe many, maybe most) were rounded by machine.

IMHO? Not on your life.

Not-Shy-Ann

[feelnmarbleous]

and not with machine-mades after 1950 or so, when cat's-eyes hit the market. Not sure you can use the word "pontil" for a seam on a purely machine-made mib, for that matter, although I guess you could argue about it. Of course. The transitionals (and some later Japanese-made hand-gathered swirls) have an actual pontil, or punty, or metal-rod-that-gathers-the-glass, or whatever (No, please don't start, no, not again! I read all those posts too!) associated with their creation, even though some (maybe many, maybe most) were rounded by machine.

IMHO? Not on your life.

Not-Shy-Ann

There is no MachineMade mib that has a pontil, the only ones where Transitionals, and most of the ones with Pinched Pontils where Japanese, technically the ones with Pontils that where "Machinemade" was really hand gathered and then put on Rollers not really made in a machine.. Only to get it round. At least this is what i have gathered on the subject.

[MC Marbles]

Cat Eye Your marble shows shear marks

[Steph]

The "pinched pontil" misnomer is probably exacerbated by what some call "Japanese pinchers". Purely machine made but with odd pinched looking poles.

Fun stuff, huh?

[ann]

Cat Eye Your marble shows shear marks

Shear marks! Thank you. The term I was -- well, not searching for, but should have been searching for!

Yep, it's grand!

Ann

[ann]

There is no MachineMade mib that has a pontil, the only ones where Transitionals, and most of the ones with Pinched Pontils where Japanese, technically the ones with Pontils that where "Machinemade" was really hand gathered and then put on Rollers not really made in a machine.. Only to get it round. At least this is what i have gathered on the subject.

As I said. The probably-Japanese ones usually have a kind of spidery line for a pontil (or pontil mark / scar). I'd use the term "eyelash" but that would get us into a whole 'nother can of worms, which has already been opened and served on this board!

Ann

[david Chamberlain]

Yeah, the use of the "pinched pontil" has been used so long inaccurately to describe the Japanese variety especially the smaller ones(9/16") that were game marbles that it has become common use. The 'shearing' comment is right on. It's just that the darn marbles looked so much like the earlier machine-made and hand gathered with that pinching effect that it carried over to post 1950s marbles. There's a variety of misnomers that as marble collectors we wind up living with. I don't think it was commented on but the fact that this marble is a single vane and then in colored glass(a beautiful green) gives it considerable weight in the world of cat's-eye marbles. I imagine if Bob Block were to have provided value factoring figures for cat's-eyes in his MARBLES IDENTIFICATION AND PRICE GUIDE this marble would have rec'd an additional multiple of 5x to 10x. David Chamberlain

[feelnmarbleous]

I'm not sure how anyone could follow Bob Blocks books with any confidence as far as price, even with his Id's......

[david Chamberlain]

Actually what you have to do with Bob's book is figure in for yourself a significant subjective factor as there is no way in any marble book that the pricing is cut and dried. In the final analysis you have to wing it and especially so with marbles. Myself I prefer fixed prices so I'm shooting from the hip often hopefully not too far off the mark. David

[cat's eye jack]

Actually what you have to do with Bob's book is figure in for yourself a significant subjective factor as there is no way in any marble book that the pricing is cut and dried. In the final analysis you have to wing it and especially so with marbles. Myself I prefer fixed prices so I'm shooting from the hip often hopefully not too far off the mark. David

thank you everyone for your excellent input..shear marks it is

[Steph]

Thanks David for commenting on the green base!

Isn't in funny how we can distracted by terminology!

Love the mib!

[marblemover]

wow, when i first looked at that cat's-eye, i was gonna post and say something like... "that's a very hard-to-find vintage cat's-eye! out of all the millions of cat's-eyes i've sorted through over the years, i've come across only 3 or 4 like that. they have definite u-shaped cut-lines with spidery palpable ridges; the glass is an intense green; and the single blade is very flat...a keeper if you're into cats!"

then i read through this thread and decided i should add: "good grief!"

[ann]

But terminology, and how well we know the meaning, and why & how we choose to use one term rather than another, is the only thing that enables us to kind of know what the heck other people are talking about. Keep in mind, however that this is an old art historian speaking, and we're about terminology almost as much as we're about art and its history!

I think the real issue is usually that people don't really read exactly what's been written. They skim it, and maybe they get it and maybe they don't, but if they don't that doesn't stop them from going on and on about it - - - Not much anybody can do about that.

Dynamite green glass cat!

Ann