jeroen Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Well, we have the topic about OK clown onionskins here. I have an OK clown onionskin for sale. Check out this link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fantastic-clown-onionskin-with-great-colors-in-mint-condition-/321344264552?ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123 For those who are interested, happy bidding! Regards, Jeroen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmuehlba Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 well why is it not a Josephs coat ? I always called mine one or am I wrong ?? Mike and what about my other one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Beautiful marble, but It does look like there is no background color on the bands so that would make it a Josephs Coat would it not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeroen Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I am not sure, but I think with a clown, the white color and the other colors are in the same layer. The black lines around the color is not black, but just a small line with no glass. I know that Hansel has a good clown onionskin. Perhaps he can tell more about the construction of a clown, and the difference with a Joseph coat. Hansel send me an email today with some questions about my clown. I know if he thinks it not a clown he would tell me. Jeroen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVVmarbles Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I used to own this marble, and I traded it with Jeroen and it's also my opion this is a clown onionskin and not a JC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydetul62 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 I believe to qualify to be a JC all the lines of color must go from top pole to bottom pole without stopping. Onionskins the lines of color can begin at top or bottom pole and do not have to go all the way without stopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 It is my understanding Clyde that the Onioskin was called that because while slightly resembling an onion the colors were a skin on another color. Usually white sometimes yellow or blue. Occasionally the thin glass threads are broken on JCs and they will not go pole to pole. Please do not get me started on the absolutely ridiculous End of Day name that now means what? any onionskin with even one broken thread. And when I started collecting German Handmade Clowns, were marbles with large rounded color spots that did not stretch pole to pole. Clouds were marbles where the color layer looked like a hot air ballon inside the marble touching only one pole. And that is all I have to say since here I am playing the stupid name game and now I feel dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Clyde is correct about the JC and onionskin def. according to the old terms... Maybe something changed and us older marble collectors need to catch up?? The black line around the color spots on a clown is not another color, it's actually a reaction between some of the colors laying on the opaque white or yellow, in most cases opaque yellow will react on opaque white, also most transparent colors will not leave the reactive line, look at most onionkins with ruby or cobalt on the white, no reaction, I am pretty sure it is basically something in the opaque colors like yellow or red and orange causing the reaction. I'd like to meet the old German glass factory worker who could place a black dot under every color spot on a clown. According to the "black line theory" take a good look a Jeroen's marble, there is no black line around the blue or green colors. So doe's this now disqualify it as being a clown??? I never heard Hansel's def. until this post about the black line having to be present, I've always known a clown to be either an onion or cloud consisting of 5 or more colors, not including the reactive black line. Maybe BB can chime in about this? Also never heard of a JC clown, they were just JC's with extra colors. As time goes by I notice a lot has changed about marble definitions, I'll stick to the old terms and rules as that is what we grew up with and what I learned from the old marble dealers like Stanley and Bob Block and Bert Cohen. I'm still looking for that rare 1964 Chevrolet Mustang Cadillac with suicide doors painted in midnight white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 So what is the difference between a JC and an Onionskin if it is not the layer of background glass under the colored glass of an onionskin and no background glass on a JC if they both have continuous threads. It is easy to see the reactive edges on some of the colors of the onionskins. I had never heard of the black edge definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 JC's could have been made using individual canes of color, the reason that the colors run pole to pole and the reason for no background color in most cases, also I think JC's are English made giving them the brighter colors , onionskins are made using transparent frit over an opaque white or yellow base and will rarely have 100% color pole to pole, also note that on almost all onionskins there are only transparent colors on top of white or yellow background, i.e. ruby, cobalt or green, the English colors are a bit more modern and contain many bright opaque colors and very few transparents. Any JC with broken color lines could be near the end of cane where the individual color canes run out, or maybe they should be classified as English onions??? Either way, the old definitions stand firm. we cannot re write the books and research of the early collectors and change the definitions, adding a new classification (English onions) could be a possibility as we all know the bright opaque colors were English and the classic ruby, cobalt and forest green transparents were German. Definitely some clarification is needed. Greg11 mentioned in another thread the newer European marbles that hit the market some time ago that were great looking handmades with bright colors, there was a lot of speculation they were not old yet showed ground and faceted pontils. also these marbles were not found in the old collections, they just suddenly appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 We basically agree on what makes a JC or an onionskin. We are in complete disagreement that any of theses marbles were made in England(English Style). Myself and many others(I think most) just believe these bright color types were mainly shipped to Great Britain from Germany as they preferred those types for the Game boards etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 OK, it's fair to disagree however... why wouldn't the Germans use the bright colors themselves, maybe they didn't like bright and pretty colors?? Don't most of the books and research attribute the bright colors to English (post 1900) marbles?? I can't argue with what has been decided years ago without some solid evidence so I'll stick to them being English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I do not believe it has never been proved any of the cane cut marbles were made in England. And as we know with todays Chinese imports it is often more cost effective to import items. England would have to have imported the fuels needed to burn in furnaces. Okay for more expensive items but possibly not for cheap toys. And I do know many of the English style have been found in board sets marked made in Germany, and usually in Great Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 England & Great Britain are the same to me so OK, maybe I'm dumb I thought Great Britain was of a 3 island group being England, Scotland and Wales? As for the English style (not named GB style) marbles found on board sets made in Germany, were these from un-opened original boxes? I've seen just about every marble made found on solitare sets, even ones sold with the original box, I don't think Akro or Peltier ever produced them? I don't see a point in arguing over it, we all have our own opinions and mine is firm until there is proof otherwise, the bright colors are English (post 1900) marbles, made in GB LOL. As for them needing to import fuel for furnaces, many glass factories in those days were still fueled by wood and coal and in some cases heating oil. India still has some glass furnaces run by oil and diesel fuel mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage-28 Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Who or where does it say that the bright colored marbles were made in England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I've never heard or read that hand-mades with bright colors have been made in England. I've heard of English style colors,why one would call it that way,ive no clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeroen Posted March 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I think those bright color marbles are also made in Germany. Perhaps most of them ended up in England, because in the USA there were several marble companies producing machine made marbles. The German handmade marbles could not compete with the USA marbles, so they stopped shipping them to the USA. But they probably sold many of them in England, also on solitaire boards. This is just a thought. I am not sure if this is what happened. Jeroen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Well, Stanley Block's book "antique end of day marbles" notes them as a separate category, English style beginning on page 88, I would guess someone speculated they were of English design when he wrote the book? Nothing states they were made in England, then again nothing states where any of the marbles were made, Germany or otherwise. To me "English style" would indicate their design came from England, as I think most collectors believe?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeroen Posted March 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Perhaps they were just called English style because they were found most often in England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I am not sure why or who named them or where they were made, I would guess "English style" meant they were made according to an English design. English glass companies made the codd bottles and the marbles inside them so I can say England made those particular marbles by machine. Bristol glass refers to colors made in English glass, Thomas Webb was an English glassmaker using unique colors, he invented Burmese glass as per the request of the Queen after she returned from a trip from Burma, she admired the Burmese sunset and commissioned Mr. Webb to come up with the new color. England obviously had the capability to make handmade marbles but I cannot say with any certainty that England actually made the "English style" but I would guess they were of English design hence the name? German style potato salad came from German recipe so I would think English style marbles came from English recipe?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I will keep my mouth shut and my ears open from now on in regards to this subject. We need clarification on the terminology, why were they called English style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 The English style is a modern term, given to marbles with bright colors most often found in England. It is only assumption by a few they were made in England with no facts to back up the assumption. Maybe some day there will be, but untill that happens there are many facts that these type marbles were made in Germany including some of the so called "English Types" being found in German dig sites and complete sets of matching marbles found on Solitaire boards marked Made in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Regarding Italian marbles.... I can say for certain Italy made glass marbles even though there are no reports in the books about them making marbles, all you have to do is look at the Murano mid century glass clowns, many hold onionskin and JC type marbles! They were made in the 1950-1960's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmarblenut Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I just went through my 10+ pounds of German marble cullet and fragments bought when the diggers hit Lauscha.... I did not find any "English style" colors other than a fragment of an Indian with a bright orange stripe on the surface, the brightest color common is yellow, the rest seem dull or muddied reds and oranges. I cannot say my 10 pounds determines they do not exist in someone else's Lauscha fragments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeroen Posted March 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 The bright colored marbles are from a later period. Perhaps regulations about throwing away glass fragments were changed by that time, or they did recycle more of the left over glass. Perhaps it has became easier to recycle old glass by than. Perhaps that is the reason why they don't show up in your marble cullets and fragments. Just guessing, I don't know. 40 years ago big companies dumped all kind of waist in our rivers. The river Rhine had became almost a dead river because of that. Now it is forbidden to dump waist in the rivers, and they are much cleaner now. And more often they recycle the waist, to make new products. So perhaps this happened with glass also. Jeroen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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