New Member, Old Collection

[cheese]

I agree with you except for one little technicality. " Even in the prize names in the box sets I posted yesterday. If it was a 3rd color, they wouldn't have called them prize names, they would have put them in a box marked specials."

With the third color added that would have moved the marble from the Prize Name box to the Tri-Color Agate box. But that's a truly tangential topic for another thread.

Ha! Yes, dang all these names! Anyway, same concept, wrong name I typed!

[Steph]

[sarab]

Thanks for the considerations...I'm scouring looking for a clear cut picture. Maybe the appraisor guy I told you about will be able to determine as he comes tomorrow.

I got the message on the red Akro! Thank you. What Akro specifically? I was just on MC.com and Alan's page and can't find it. Is it a striped carnelian?

Also, while on Alan's page, I saw a transitional slag.......different from a corkscrew? I'm thinking of my black and white ones.

[Steph]

I got the message on the red Akro! Thank you. What Akro specifically?

?? I'm not sure of the question so I'll just spill out all my thoughts and hope one is relevant.

The red based one with the thin white ribbon was called an Onyx by Akro. The Onyx name started out as being for slags, but then it was applied to other marbles. So, after 1930, the Akro Onyx was a transparent-based cork with a white ribbon.

The thinness of the ribbon on this one makes it stand out. And the number of twists makes it stand out. It's also a nice size.

It has more than three twists, and that's very nice Two or more is cool. Three or more is great.

[Steph]

Will be interesting to learn what the appraiser says. As I expected, folks aren't saying much about specific values. The rebel(s) and liberty add to the few ballparks I mentioned in our email. I saw many of your NLR's but I didn't notice the rebels or liberty. I have one rebel myself ... just got it as part of an amazing gift ... and would like to know a value ... but maybe it's best if I don't since I don't plan to sell mine.

[Steph]

Well even though I sorta didn't want to know, I just did a quick ebay check on rebels and see that for mine (in near-mint-plus condition) I might expect between $20 and $50.

[sarab]

I have decided that he will not be leaving my home with any marbles the same day. If he makes offer, I'll just have to learn more before I can answer as I have nothing to go off of....I ordered the price guide, which, I've learned may not be the best resource. This is where time and experience in this hobby is so valuable.

Thanks for the onxy info. I just read about Christiansen and Akro and the history of both companies with it.

I learned today there's a woman in my office whose grandmother has an un-identified lot of marbles. I told her I would help her with them when she is ready. I'm not a pro, but I know a lot more than I did 5 days ago. Paying it forward.

Got my storage containers ordered.

[ann]

Just butting in on the hybrid thing. Although I agree that you can get a (reactive) dark line where two colors (like green and yellow) meet . . . that looks like it's really red there -- at least on my monitor. If so, red is a primary color, meaning you can't get it from blending. It just is. (Along with the other 2 primary colors, yellow and blue.)

So to my mind that marble is a hybrid, in that it has two of the normal Popeye colors (green & yellow) plus a third, probably deliberately introduced one -- red.

I don't think the length of each color in the ribbon is an indicator, in this sense. Picture three tubes of toothpaste side by side, and one runs out before the others . . . or, in the case of a marble like this, the angle of the shear or the color submerging into the base glass (for any number of crazy reasons) could explain it . . .

As an aside, green is a secondary color -- meaning you get it from blending two of the primary colors together -- yellow and blue.

If she's ordering storage containers I think we got her.

[sarab]

Thanks Ann. I get confused when I look at the possible hybrid. The middle color is red, it is not brown. However, every hybrid picture II've studied seems like the 3rd color is on the outside. It goes thick 1st color, thick 2nd color, then 3rd thin color. That's what makes me doubt mine. It's thin in the middle.

[cheese]

If it really is red, I agree, it's a hybrid.

[ann]

. . . every hybrid picture II've studied seems like the 3rd color is on the outside. It goes thick 1st color, thick 2nd color, then 3rd thin color. That's what makes me doubt mine. It's thin in the middle.

I don't think the position of it matters if it's a primary color. In fact, the first hybrid Popeye I ever owned sneaked up on me. Sort of early on in my machine-made collecting, I'd just agreed with myself to get "one of each" of the most usual Popeyes, and bought my first -- a red and green one. Months passed, and I'd just gotten a good loupe and was re-looking-at some mibs, and discovered that snuggled up underneath and between the green & red was a thin stream of pure yellow. Coulda knocked me over with that feather people use to knock other people over with . . .

Anyhow, I'd say that regardless of position, if the extra color is primary (red, yellow, or blue) the Popeye is a hybrid. If the extra color is secondary (green, orange, purple) or more, and it's between the two main colors, you're probably looking at a blend, depending on what the two main colors are.

So . . . if you have a blue and yellow Popeye and there's a thread or ribbon or band of green between the blue and yellow, you're likely looking at a blend (blue + yellow = green). Just to make it interesting, if, on the other hand, it's NOT between the two colors, but borders only the blue, or only the yellow, you might then be looking at a hybrid, too.

[Steph]

Glass blending in the same way as paint would?

[ann]

Eeeeek. I was hoping to skate right over that. I don't believe so, not exactly, but I don't think I could explain it -- maybe because I'm not entirely sure how it works. Except to say that sometimes I think it's an overlapping rather than a blending? Here's where I hope the Real Glass People will come in.

Migbar? Mike? Brian? Somebody? Get me outta this hole?

[cheese]

Ok, I'm not an expert, but this is how I understand it. Glass is colored by adding chemicals. Those chemicals don't necessarily have the color that it makes the glass, but they make the glass that color (cobalt added to make blue, for instance). Glass isn't pigmented with dye. When, for example, a blue glass mixes with a yellow glass, the chemicals react. The two don't mix like dyes, they mix like compounds in chemistry. They make a new compound, often which is turns to a brown, black, or grey. If one color is pulled thinly over another but not mixed, it can look like the mix that you would get if you were mixing dyes (yellow and blue make green)... but if the two actually blend or touch enough, they can react and create a thin line of the reacted chemicals... usually a dark dull color. That is why so often your blue, yellow, and green based marbles have a thin line of dark bordering the contrasting color.

The same thing happens in ceramics. Glaze on ceramics is colored glass that has been crushed to powder. This is suspended in a "paint" and brushed on, then the piece is fired in a kiln hot enough to melt the glass powder back into a glass coating. If you look at where a piece is glazed and two colors overlap, they normally make a dull color that isn't really the expected result of the other two colors combined.

[ann]

What he said!

Thanks, Cheese . . .

I suppose we should stop using the words "blend" and "blended" where we're talking about where one color meets another in glass. "Bleed" is no better.

So, for example, when one color meets another, (at least) two possibilities exist = (1) a chemical reaction between the two colorants (say a Popeye blue and yellow), which can produce who knows what, but is usually a thin dark (or discolored) line, or (2) the yellow glass overlaps the blue (or vice versa), producing the appearance of green between the two. In other words, an overlap can produce the same color we're used to seeing in pigment blending . . . although not necessarily. Maybe it would sometimes produce a wider discolored band. Probably where all those extra browns come from in a bunch of corkscrew color combos I have. Huh.

Uh-oh. Technically, that should probably be called a hybrid. You know, like a horse + a donkey = a mule . . . a hybrid. Never mind. Pretend I didn't say that. Unhear it. Unsee it.

So . . . is this the deal? Some Popeyes with three colors could be (1) hybrids, as we define them today (having a third, apparently deliberately-introduced color that is NOT a "reaction" color, regardless of width or position), or (2) not hybrid, because the third color is produced by overlapping one color over another, or (3) not a hybrid but instead having a third (or more) "reaction" color where two differently-colored glasses meet --

I dunno. Whaddaya think?

[sarab]

This is so hard. Seems like the only way would be to cut them in half. A third color you would expect to see it alone. If no third color, you would expect to see just 2 colors alone.

If 2 colors make a 3rd unintentional color, why have those been deemed less desirable? Color is color right? Brown isn't as desirable as red, I get that. How could one ever know without cutting in half if any make of marble has intentional or unintentional colors?

I'm sure I'm missing something here.....it's fun to think about though.

[Steph]

Ann: Re, the reference to deliberately-introduced ... When I think about hybrid on Popeyes I don't think about an intentional third color. Not like with a Vitro hybrid. I think of a little old glass still being in the tank when they change to the other color. But that's just how I picture it. I don't even know what I mean when I say "tank". I'm not one of the people who have spent a lot of time studying the actual physical set-up.

Sara: Glad it's fun to think about. If it ever stops being fun, step back and take a break. And remember anyway you cut it, it's a popeye, which is one of the most fun marbles ever.

[ann]

Ann: Re, the reference to deliberately-introduced ... When I think about hybrid on Popeyes I don't think about an intentional third color. Not like with a Vitro hybrid. I think of a little old glass still being in the tank when they change to the other color. But that's just how I picture it.

I think you're probably right

[sarab]

4 re-takes of my possible hybrid. Please vote yes, or no if you think it is indeed 3 true colors. An ace bandage makes a decent backdrop.

[sarab]

last one

[pedidoll]

Yes

[ann]

Yes.

[ausman]

YES