What Causes Orange Peel?

[Shamrock Marbles]

Galen:

Way too technical for me. Sorry, it starts taking the fun out of it when I have to think too hard(LOL)

So, says they guy that pulls out a high magnification scope studying micro-scratches on the surface of a toy marble in the effort to collect forensic evidence to validate the genesis of said marble?

Now that's funny, right there!

I have also seen fused glass come out of a kiln that got an orange peel texture.

Make sure you're not looking at devitrification.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mon]

Galen:

Way too technical for me. Sorry, it starts taking the fun out of it when I have to think too hard(LOL)

So, says they guy that pulls out a high magnification scope studying micro-scratches on the surface of a toy marble in the effort to collect forensic evidence to validate the genesis of said marble?

Now that's funny, right there!

I have also seen fused glass come out of a kiln that got an orange peel texture.

Make sure you're not looking at devitrification.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

Either funny or I'm at the starting gate of elderly urinary incontinence! mon

[ann]

The wrinkling you point out that looks like your finger-tips pruning after being soaked in water for some time ...Simply, they are dimples that have been distorted from the underlying "soft" glass shifting. Once that top surface develops an impression from the augers and cools, there is nothing the rollers can do to completely smooth out the surface.

This is what I've been thinking of as "orange peel." And what I sort-of-instinctually thought caused it. Didn't know different people had different definitions of orange peel. All interesting!

[lstmmrbls]

I like to look John, not think(LOL) Maybe thats why I often post with out first thinking (loL) . I do not believe those wrinkles in that marble were pushed in by roller issues, but then I am not sure you are saying they were? Or are you saying the rollers just don't have a chance to smooth out the wrinkles before they cool? but that seemed obvious?

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Now increase your assumed "blank"temp of 2200 by increments of 100.

What happens to the contraction rate,and the contraction time?

Machine made marbles cool from the outside,in,and expell the heat from the inside out.

Not a nice,easy annealing type of cool down.There is a temp/expansion/contraction, fight going on betwwen the

middle and the outside of the marble.

Nope,no hidden agenda because of the bold letters,

,just started writing that way,and was too lazy to fix it.

Notice the orange peel,and COLD ROLLED marks on Ann's photo?

[Shamrock Marbles]

Galen:

I like to look John, not think(LOL) Maybe thats why I often post with out first thinking (loL) .

Darn. I thought you were an intellectual. So, when I read your posts to people asking questions, is there any way I would know if you've actually given it thought or just felt like hearing your keyboard "clack"?

For some odd reason, I think you've just told everyone to ignore any of your posts.

I do not believe those wrinkles in that marble were pushed in by roller issues, but then I am not sure you are saying they were? Or are you saying the rollers just don't have a chance to smooth out the wrinkles before they cool? but that seemed obvious?

The imperfections in the auger/roller will dimple the surface of the glass. The large underlying mass of molten glass is still very fluid as the surface cools. The augers are placing forces to get the sphere to rotate on multiple axis. These forces cause the gob to be "kneaded". This kneading action will shift the surface that is still slightly pliable. Impressions ("dots") on the surface are localized weak zones. Some of the individual "dot" impressions will be merged together as the surface shifts, thus creating various length "ovals", "valleys" or "amoeba" geometries. Larger folding areas are larger collapse zones (I think a PC term is "cold roll marks"). Notice how some of the "longer" wrinkles are parallel to these longer "creases", "seams" or "cold roll marks"? Now, there are other defects not discussed here. Such as, football ends, nipples, rams heads, shear marks, shear tails, etc.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Griff:

Now increase your assumed "blank"temp of 2200 by increments of 100.

Sure, were does one stop? 2300F? 3000F? 10,000F?

Do you know the average temperature of a gob of glass as it is delivered to the rollers?

If you do, then that would be great and we could use that number!

Please share!

What happens to the contraction rate,and the contraction time?

Contraction with respect to temperature is constant.

Keeping all things equal, heat transfers at a constant rate.

If you increase the initial temperature, it will take longer for the object to cool to the same target temperature.

Machine made marbles cool from the outside,in,and expell the heat from the inside out.

If I'm not mistaken, even hand-made marbles cool the same way.

Come to think of it, pretty much everything else would, too.

The flow of thermal energy is from higher state bodies to lower state bodies.

The gob of glass is transferring it's energy to the surrounding environment through radiation, convection and conduction.

Radiation via infrared.

Convection via the air.

Conduction via the rollers.

Notice the orange peel,and COLD ROLLED marks on Ann's photo?

Yes. Ann's picture is actually Galen's from post #18.

I think I have responded to this photo in posts #20, #22, #24 and #31.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[ann]

Well, I'm happy. Thanks, John!

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

past experiance,,2,000 degrees +/- 100--in the tank

Contraction is constant,in anything that is cooling,the rate of contraction is not.

Ever see what happens to a handmade marble over 1 inch,that didnt have some controled contraction rate(annealing)?

You end up with a pretty pile of shards because the rate of contraction was too fast.

Carry on,,,,,,,,

[lstmmrbls]

I guess you are saying that if the rollers are perfectly smooth one would never see the orange peel effect on these large marbles, Sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree on that for now. John I just am trying to keep things light with a bit of humor. I tend to just go to the next thread when things get too technical and no fun.

[Steph]

I keep trying to have an epiphany based on cool rate of the interior and amount of surface area.

But nothing happens when you try to force an epiphany.

[Shamrock Marbles]

Galen:

I guess you are saying that if the rollers are perfectly smooth one would never see the orange peel effect on these large marbles,

Perfectly smooth, no.

Look at this picture below. Focus on the light from my computer monitor. Notice the surface differences of the Shamrock (on the Left) and the Vacor (on the Right)?

The Shamrock is 1.330" diameter and the Vacor is 1.316" diameter (around 1-5/16" diameter for both).

The Shamrock weighs 51.21 grams and the Vacor weighs 49.19 grams.

The Shamrock glass density is 41.57 g/in^3 and the Vacor glass density is 41.22 g/in^3.

The Shamrock is COE 96 and the Vacor is an unknown COE.

Glass hits my rollers anywhere between 1800F to 2200F.

The rollers are at room temperature (55F-100F).

Sometimes people, myself included, overlook the obvious right under their nose.

These marble machines have been around for years (if not decades) and their auger surfaces have "aged".

Here's the rub...

The Shamrock marble was formed under the same laws of physics (dynamics and heat transfer) that the Vacor was subjected during it's creation.

No uneven core shrinkage is evident on the Shamrock.

Cooling glass does not behave like a dehydrating grape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrHzi7fYezQ

Between you and me, I'm good if we disagree, but I'm equally good if we do agree.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[lstmmrbls]

With the amount of cold rolling associated with the "orange peel" on the Vacors It seems much more likely to me this is a temperature and cooling thing much more so than a rough roller thing. The patterns are not something that would show up on rollers. And with 12,000,000+ marbles going over rollers every day at Vacor I am assuming they are pretty darn smooth. Sorry, that marble,(the wrinkled vacor) looks nothing like the marbles I have that are from rough rollers. They are dull and show the dents from the junk on the rollers, they do not have these smooth worm like various size wrinkles. They are absolutely nothing alike. Here is "orange peel" from rough rollers. So yes, I do agree that "orange peel" can be the result of rough rollers, I do not believe the "orange peel" on the vacors is from rough rollers.

[migbar]

I suspect that it isn't so much from a rough surface on the rollers, as it is from overheated rollers making the glass, especially on larger marbles, take longer to cool down. John's wheel rollers at room temperature making several handfulls of marbles one at a time, wouldn't heat up nearly as much as production marble company augers with continuously fed gobs for a twelve hour period. The resulting marbles would be much more likely to have folds, a rough surface, and to be mis-shapen. The large Miller machine at Peltier that made the one inch marbles, had evolved to the point where it had water lines underneath.

[lstmmrbls]

And running nonstop for days if not weeks at a time I bet those Vacor rollers get pretty darn toasty. Just read they are up to 20,000,000 a day

I think I read they ran 24/7

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mike:

Can you explain why a longer cooling time would yield the Vacor orange peel?

Are you saying the surface stays pliable longer and gets imprinted with the auger surface?

Is there another physical phenomena to which you refer?

Do large Peltiers show this? Root Beer Floats?

I didn't see this orange peel on the Vitro Parrots in the Boulders post.

Did anyone else have the same exact type of orange peel? (Akro, Marble King, etc.)

FYI, that orange peel shown in Post #18 and #28 is also on some of my Vacor 5/8" and 1" marbles.

Obviously, the depth is less as the marble gets smaller (lighter).

Just a thought, but I bet you Vacor media-blasts their augers to remove rust and improve friction.

I blasted my tooling once to accelerate machine break-in.

What a disaster! Terrible orange peel! Need to find those and look at their surface.

Galen:

Your post right after Mike's reminded me of Jon Lovitz.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp9fh-u4w8

Thanks for the levity!

Anyhow, you bring up a good point about showing samples of dirty rollers.

How do you think Vacor would clean jacked-up augers?

Maybe they would media blast them in place and not have to disassemble the machine?

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[migbar]

I don't know what causes the orange peel surface, but I don't think it is necessarily reliant on the rollers having a rough surface. All of Peltier's machines were well maintained and smooth, but I found quite a few 3/4" marbles that looked exactly like the green and white ones Galen showed in post 38. I didn't see the rollers close up when I was at Jabo for the Mansion run, but a high percentage of our marbles had the wrinkly surface as in Galen's post #18. This occurred off and on throughout our run, especially when we had the red base glass, which flows at a lower temperature, and is much less stiff than the white or yellow base glass that we had used prior to the red.

[ann]

Either funny or I'm at the starting gate of elderly urinary incontinence! mon

I'm still snickering, mon!

[mon]

I'm not snickering.....my new name around the house is Poppie!

[lstmmrbls]

Mike, I understand the thinking that the hot rollers could keep the surface of the marble hot long enough to allow the cooling shrinking glass on the interior to start pulling at the glass on the surface. Good theory. I am not sure anything I can say or show is going to sway John into believing Orange peel can form on marbles made on smooth rollers. Maybe someone else can? I will leave the rest of this discussion to others. Just look at the blue glass, that is not from anything pushing in on the glass!!!!!. I know paint forms orange peel with out touching any thing and I have seen glass besides marbles orange peel without touching anything so I don't see why marbles can not orange peel with out bumps on rollers creating the orange peel.

Mon Being a survivor of a prostatectomy I can't laugh too loud with out wet results and I may have done so at your post!

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

marble blank too hot,,the rate it cools on the rollers is too fast for the glass,,,,creates distorted surface.

Mike,the reason the orange peel appeared every now and again at PM run,,,the tank was running hot and there will alway be a temp swing,every time strike glass was added to the tank.Ran hot,ran cold,ran hot,ran cold,,,,,,,,,,,

Now Im gonna do an orange peel experiment by sitting down quickly,in a cold tub full of water!

Dont think Ill take pictures though,,,,--LOL

[Shamrock Marbles]

To All:

Let's start all over. Reset.

Imagine if Steph asked, "Why is my tire flat?"

Possible response could be:

"There is no air in it."

"It's only flat on the bottom half!"

"You have a nail."

"It's a Firestone."

"It's December."

They are simple responses.

I give Steph credit in trying to ask technical questions.

She's smart enough (along with the readers of this forum) to pull it all in and digest the info.

I think it is a dis-service to give short answers to her (and readers).

So, let's go back and revisit her original question(s):

What Causes Orange Peel?

Is it glass temperature and cooling rates?
Is it something more complicated like the chemistry of the glass involved?

Here is my direct response:

What Causes Orange Peel?

Since this is a marble chat board, I'm assuming you're referring to orange peel on spherical glass marbles as opposed to bottles, plate glass, car paint, etc.

Is it glass temperature and cooling rates?

Yes, kind-of, but let me develop this a bit more below.

Is it something more complicated like the chemistry of the glass involved?

I'm sure some chemical imbalance could be at play, but most glass formulae are well established.

I wouldn't rule this out, but I would marginalize it to the less than 1% category.

My response to her second question clearly states that I agree "glass temperature" plays a roll.

However, my "kind-of" comment is really meant to say that there is more at play than just "glass temperature" alone.

Now, just proceeding my response to Steph was:

To All:

I think the definition of "orange peel" may vary from individual to individual (myself included).

Clarifying this may help in the discussion.

Photo samples would help.

Galen was the first and only one to offer a photo example.

His picture was a sample of extreme orange peel on a large Vacor marble (actual diameter not shared).

This type of orange peel is not normally found on vintage marbles.

Again, please show me a 1-1/4" MFC, or 1" Peltier, Vitro Parrot or Alley with this extreme orange peel.

(The closest I've seen is a surface on an AKRO Jolly Roger.)

I will follow up on additional posts.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Galen:

I understand the thinking that the hot rollers could keep the surface of the marble hot long enough to allow the cooling shrinking glass on the interior to start pulling at the glass on the surface. Good theory.

No. Bad theory. Take a day-trip and run this down to the engineering department at Stanford. Be prepared for strange looks of derision or just laughing.

Temp(Auger) < Temp(Marble Surface) < Temp(Marble Core)

I am not sure anything I can say or show is going to sway John into believing Orange peel can form on marbles made on smooth rollers.

I don't think you've really said anything congruent or substantial.

One of your first comments was: A cooling piece of glass can develope orange peel surface without ever touching rollers

That statement is true and false. A further explanation is required. (<<Notice I said "true".)

As far as showing anything, you've supplied some nice photos. Even photos that had nothing to do with the original question. Thank you.

It's easy to say, "The apple falls from the tree", but can you explain why? Will you even try?

...Orange peel can form on marbles made on smooth rollers

Let me see your logic based on your previous statements:

Vacor makes millions of marbles.

Millions of marbles running across augers makes them smooth.

Therefore, all Vacor augers are smooth.

Vacor makes marbles with orange peel.

Vacor marble machines have smooth augers.

Therefore, marbles with orange peel come from smooth augers.

Disregard the above postulate, because...

A cooling piece of glass can develop orange peel surface without ever touching rollers

Maybe someone else can? I will leave the rest of this discussion to others.

I like this argument technique.

It implies that you hold the high ground of truth and facts, while you have exhausted yourself trying to raise me to your position.

I can just see you throw your arms in the air as a futile surrender.

I doubt you'll leave this discussion to others.

You checked out once before (on post #25), but only to return.

It's in your nature.

Just look at the blue glass, that is not from anything pushing in on the glass!!!!!

Love the extra exclamation marks. It is a great way to socially emphasize your frustration.

Yes, I have looked at the blue glass in the photos posted in #18 and #28.

I even have actual Vacor samples in my possession.

Yes, there are pushing forces.

Gravity pushes the molten gob into the face of the augers.

The rotational drive of the downward roller pushes the gob toward and into the upward roller.

The curvature of the groove, auger offset and auger pitch create horizontal forces and push the gob sideways.

While you're at Stanford talking to the professor about that heat transfer theory, tell him your thoughts that there is nothing pushing on the marble surface.

I know paint forms orange peel with out touching any thing

Using paint is a bad analogy.

Paint orange peel can occur from improper target preparation, droplet size, wrong angle of spray, etc.

When paint dries, the carrier (water or a voc) evaporates.

When marbles are made, the shape is formed and heat is lost.

Sorry, marble orange peel has zero to do with paint orange peel.

and I have seen glass besides marbles orange peel without touching anything

Where you in outer space or a zero g environment?

How does a chunk of glass cool without touching anything?

Was a hot gob of glass dropped from atop the Empire State building and the cool sphere caught at the bottom?

[This is how Dippin' Dots are created. Drops of ice cream are dropped through a cryogenic tower. Frozen balls at the bottom.]

so I don't see why marbles can not orange peel with out bumps on rollers creating the orange peel.

I know you don't see. That's okay.

Your whole argument has been that Vacor orange peel is coming from smooth rollers, so something else is causing the orange peel.

And that "something" else must be how the marble is cooling.

You did open my eyes to the Vacor orange peel as a variant of orange peel.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Steph]

Thank you, John!

I love it all, even the parts that are over my head -- for now. Talk technical to me, baby!

[migbar]

I asked John Burns, the long time mechanic at Peltier Glass Company, if he knew what causes the orange peel texture on some marbles, and he said...

"...from what I have witnessed the marble makers would soak a rag in a mixture of water and soda ash, and run it along the rollers (while they were making marbles) thereby giving the rollers a little more traction on hot marbles. This would keep some of the undersized marbles from falling through the rollers. This also leads to the orange peel texture you are talking about. After the rollers heat back up, the soda ash smooths out and the texture disappears. This may not be the only reason for a orange peel affect, but it is one I have personally observed. I hope this is helpful." John