Josephs coat or onion? Or something else?

[DINDO]

Josephs coat or onion? Or something else? Bit banged up.

[Steph]

I think onion skin ....  but I don't know these types well. 

If you add something like "Josephs coat or onion" to your thread title, it could catch the eyes of people who do know.  

 

I'll go make that title change now .... 

[DINDO]

Thanks Steph . I think the colours are referred to as English colours . It is  .962". I have seen pictures of similar looking JC and OS.

[Royal3]

Steph I’d put this one in the “coat closet.” I’m an onion fan myself, but I tracked down this definition of both on the MC site from 2007 that might help:

http://marbleconnection.com/topic/7680-josephs-coat-vs-onionskin/

 

“Onionskins have a base layer of colored glass, usually white, or yellow, or panelled white and yellow. On top of that base layer, various stripes of (usually transparent) color are added. A joseph coat has the stripes of color, but there is no base, and most often the stripes are opaque.”

 

[godown]

 

 

 

One thing Roger didn't mention with Josephs you should be able to look inside,  on this example pictured you will notice its almost like there are ribbons missing and you can see into the core the effect is very obvious on mine not so obvious on others you will see 

https://www.glasmurmeln.com/Josephs-Coats.htm

[Steph]

Thanks, guys.

 

[DINDO]

Very Nice link. Since were on the Joseph Coat topic. I am wondering if this one may be a shrunken JC. Once i read rare, my doubts increase. Regardless i have never been able to place it .

[Royal3]

I’m no great expert on Joseph’s coats, frankly I’ll take onions over them any day, but I do think there’s a distinct difference so I went back to the reference books to see if I could define them a bit better. Onionskins got their name from their resemblance to onions, obviously, and so they have layers of color; a base color of some sort with other pigments layered on top, then encased in clear. A Joseph’s has, quoting Block, “a subsurface layer of glass that is composed of different colored strands, placed very closely together.” Others have said the bands should run from pole to pole; they may be shrunken on the sides (like some onions,) and they may be open or closed (some onions are open as well, like errors or maybe with mica or other panels.) Generally they are five or more colors, but that’s not hard and fast. 

 

The second marble you posted Dindo I’d call a slightly shrunken paneled onion - almost an Indian onion - it’s got that odd green base with one red and one blue panel. It’s a bit of an oddball, as panels are usually symmetrical, 2&2, e.g. and that sea foam green is interesting. How big is it? 

 

I think Roger’s theory about how the Joseph’s coat evolved is well worth reading below (though I disagree with his comment about Joseph’s being “a larger class.”) Nearly every Joseph’s coat I have ever seen in 20 years does have a rough or later pontil, not a ground (earlier) one, and “English” or brighter colors. If you see an obvious Joseph’s with a faceted pontil, I’d look at it really, really hard. There are always the rare ones; Morphy’s has this “rule breaker” coat up on their next auction: http://auctions.morphyauctions.com/mobile/lotdetail.aspx?inventoryid=447958&seo=striking_joseph_s_coat_marble_

 

“My understanding is that early on in the history of marble production, the onionskin required a base layer of white and/or yellow beacuse they were the only common opque colors of glass. Then different kinds of transparent surface coloration was used, sometimes full stripes, but more often pieces of broken rods, that stretched out to make a variety of surface shapes, jagged or blobby. Once more opaque colors became available ("English", bright colors), there was no purpose for the base coat any longer, and for the most part, joseph coat (at least ones with no base) replaced the onionskin. How often do you see an onionskin made with the bright, "English" opaque colors? Then a great number of variations appeared, including the use of open panels, and various strange core structures. Sometimes they take on an appearance of a latticinio, a solid core, or a banded clear, but they are all really a product of the shift to bright opaque surace banding colors (attached a pic below of a group of these that I was lucky enough to find as a partial solitaire set). I feel this was a major change in the nature of this type of marble, deserving of some names that reflect the change. Though I know it was not the original intended use, the term "joseph coat" seems to have evloved to designate this larger class of handmade.”

 

Dindo I hope that helps. 

 

 

 

 

 

[DINDO]

Thank you Royal. Bunch of great info. Very helpfull. It is .677 " . I thought the colours resembled the "English" colours.