Real or fake vintage bag?

[Spherophile]

A local store has a huge collection of marbles scattered about, and I frequently go in and look at them with the owner trying to identify them. We found what appeared to be a vintage bag (header was offset printed, staples looked appropriate) for PAL BOTTLING which, but were confused when we found this modern bag of Vitro Agates which appears to contain some of the same marbles. 

What do you think? Is the PAL bag a fake? It is missing the seam, but from what I saw online for a genuine bag it didn’t have a seam either. 

[Steph]

Interesting.  I wasn't familiar with a Pal Bottling promo.  

I look online and see some bags with four or five marbles.  And the marbles in those bags are Alleys from the 1940's.   I post one below.  The label style is  appropriate for marbles which would have been made in the 1940's and distributed in the 1940's or early 1950's.    The marbles you are showing do look like Jabos and the label looks close to the labels on the packages with clearly vintage marbles ... but it has a distinct difference.  I strongly suspect reproduction on the bag you show.  Or maybe a label which Champion was using but then it was sold as surplus and filled with modern marbles.  That happened a lot in the 1990's, I believe.

[Spherophile]

Now that I look at the picture you’ve posted and compare it to the one I posted I’m more convinced that it isn’t even a genuine header—the font is wrong, for one thing. On the genuine one it’s Futura Bold, but in the one I posted it looks like a variant of Helvetica. Also look at how perfect the kerning is on the one I posted. All of the letters maintain a visually uniform spacing, even when the letters encroach. If you look at the P and A on the genuine header there’s an obvious gap between the letters created by the open space under the loop on the P, but on the reproduction that is tightened up to make it look uniform. Computers do that. 

I also see that the black border is different. On the fake, in the upper left corner where the two sides meet it cuts off in a funky way. That’s what old computer programs used to do (modern ones have gotten better, depending on the program). 

That means someone went to the trouble of actually having those two-color printed on an offset printer. Color me surprised! Al though I guess I shouldn’t be, since they’re worth so much money compared to the cost to produce them. 

[Steph]

 

[wvrons]

Both bags are fake and zero value to collectors. If the Pal bag was real it would be about $5.00-15.00.  If the Jabo bag was real it would be about $1.00-2.00 . These if real do not have a high or even medium collector value. Most 95-98% of original vintage plastic bags have a melted seam up and down the center on the back of the bag. Jack Bogard who was part owner of Jabo had the rights to the Vitro Agate name.  For a while Jabo did include Vitro Agate on their marble bag headers. But they never had actual vintage Vitro marbles in them. They were all filled with Jabo marbles. No vintage Vitro marbles were ever made at Reno Ohio. 

[Spherophile]

Taking a look through eBay, even “obviously fake” bags of marbles sell for $10 or more. One man clearly makes a business out of selling them, although who knows where he’s getting all of the marbles. 
 

Edit: A number of those bags are extremely racist. It would be one thing if they were re-creations of historic items, but just putting pictures of a black kid eating watermelon and calling it “Jolly Ni**er” is pretty disgusting. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F163870804860

[Steph]

omg ... I hadn't seen that one.   How sad. 

[Spherophile]

I sent a message to the seller. Not trying to get him removed or sanctioned, just trying to get him to rethink whether he should be offering it. My guess is he’s making them himself and they are obviously selling. 

To elaborate: I realize that for many people in this hobby that kind of terminology was commonplace when they were kids, and no one thought much of it or for many it wasn’t considered derogatory. Times have changed, and those terms and images have been co-opted and headlined by groups that I don’t think anyone here really wants to support. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Spherophile
Explaining so I don’t cause confusion or iffend

[Al Oregon]

There are legit Pal Ade bags.  I have always wondered about the original one posted since the style of the orange headers is like the ones used by Marble King (Or Berry Pink prior to Marble King).  The bag with the obvious Jabos is a fantasy bag but the other one with the Alleys might be real. Here are two of the real bags that I have to "prove" that Pal Ade was a legit company.  

[Al Oregon]

I could not upload/download the 2nd pic in the previous - got a "-200" message ?? 

 

[wvrons]

I have never seen a Pal Bottling Co. orange header with 12 marbles, but possible. The marbles in it look very much like the ones in the Jabo bag.  But that is though the plastic ?  Lots of things sell much higher on ebay than many places. At shows no experienced collector will pay $5.00 or $3.00 for the fake bags. But ebay has a lot of no experience marble buyers and sellers. I base very little on ebay marble listings. Know what you are buying.