You're right, Steph. But the white ribbons on Type 4s are supposed to be veneered over a lesser quality white base glass. I don't think newer All Reds are constructed that way - just two patches on a white base, no separately applied white ribbons, which makes these kinds considerably tougher for me to put my finger on (without a hammer). And it seems to me that when Vitro started to cut costs even more, one of the first things to go would have been those separately-applied white ribbons. So while I think most of these would qualify as Type 4s, if anyone knows a good way to distinguish the Type 4s from the newer All Red style patches (with no red), I sure would like to learn about it.