hdesousa

The seller says this ad is from the 1910's. That may give you some idea who might not have made the marbles: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910s-AD-Owl-Andirons-1775-Ball-Cast-Iron-Wrought-Black-Finish-Hotpoint-Vacuum-/151129178619

Migbar sent me these sketches from the "Peltier Documents". "I’m not sure who drew it, likely Sellers, but maybe Berry Pink...." Apparently Sellers Peltier and Berry Pink were good buds. Well, here's proof:

Likely possible, but not probable. I can see a store owner refilling an empty display box with entirely different bulk marbles from an as yet mysterious source. But why would some (rich) kid then buy an entire box of marbles that obviously did not look like the what's named on the label and then not play with them?

Never seen another with a wooden header. The Akro No.25 box and No.15 box (the red boxes of slags with a top cellophane window) have metal inserts to hold the marbles. No obvious ID marks on the knife. Think the knife has had some use - I'll recheck next time I get the box out and will let you know if otherwise.

Yup. Pretty smart, especially since I did not give you any clues re. sizes. The prefix '5' probably signifies Moss Agate and '4' Royals. The second number denotes the size. So 56 would be a one inch moss agate and 41 an 11/16" royal. Don't know what '3' of 39 would be. But the '9' would be 9/16". (Albright uses a similar (but different) system) Michael Johnson once told me the most common 9/16" Akro was a Chinese Checker marble. When was the first Chinese Checker type marble produced, and does it fit into the moss agate/royals time frame?

Ronnie, there is a system to the numbering, but I can't figure it out completely.

This was on eBay almost 10 years ago. All the seller could tell me was "It was an estate sale, the old man of course had died so we can't tell you anything beyond that it was in Northern Michigan up near Traverse City at a place called Clam River (which is a fairly wealthy older settlement) " Some of the smaller marbles may not be original. All the larger marbles are probably original to the box. Question is, what do the numbers stand for, and what marbles should be in the column marked "No.39". Underneath the wooden header, a secret cavity was carved for a pocket knife.

That's the best explanation I've heard to explain a complete set of anomalous marbles in a branded box. But that still doesn't explain why we don't see these marbles in their own shipping containers. Just about every mass produced imported German marble has been advertised in catalogs, from chinas to benningtons to swirls to agates, etc. as well as having been found in their original shipping boxes. Not so these red/white marbles with a "pinched pontil".

Don't you think that pattern has to be cut? Either from glass cullet or from rock?

Winnie, the US probably stopped importing glass marbles from Germany when we could make our own glass marbles, but no reason the Germans could not have made their own. Here is another unlabelled box I bought at a marble show years ago. It has the same hand gathered marbles you once pictured, with the same "pinch pontil". There is a tiny remnant of a label: And a price tag from the Dow Drug Company, Cincinnati, on the bottom: Here is a pic of the interior of the drug store. Anyone see marbles for sale?

And just to really complicate things, especially for those who thought Akro was left out of it, look at these. The marbles are all hand gathered and almost all have what Bob Block calls a "pinched pontil". from http://www.marblecollecting.com/marble-reference/online-marble-id-guide/transitions/ Pinch Pontil Transitionals exhibit a short straight raised line on the bottom pole. Usually, the top pole has a “9” type configuration. The cut-off line on a Pinch Pontil is much straighter and usually much shorter than that seen on the Crease Pontils discussed below. The crease on Crease Pontils usually are about 1/5th to 1/4 the circumference of the marble. The pontil on a Pinch Pontil are usually less than 1/10th the circumference of the marble. There is still discussion amongst collectors over the age and origin of these marbles. It was generally believed that Pinch Pontil Transitionals are American made, probably early Christensen Agate Company. However, recent research has indicated that the marbles were made in Canada. The pontil is the remnant of a mechanized shearing process, rather than a hand-cut process. I'm pretty sure that that Akro Carnelians box originally contained those marbles. They were bought here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-Vintage-Carnelians-Lot-of-25-Akro-Agate-Marbles-w-Original-No-1-Box-/380738420616 The sellers had no knowledge of marbles. They also sold this at the same time, and if they were into "corrupting" marble boxes, they would have also "fixed" this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-Vintage-Moonies-Lot-of-24-Akro-Agate-Moonie-Marbles-w-Original-Box-/360757602616

I think you're right about the earlier American Agates being hand gathered. Here are a couple more boxes. They both have some hand gathered marbles it seems. Wonder if it's possible to hand gather more than one marble at a time in a big blob of glass, in which case the second and following marbles from that gather would have two cut-offs and no "nine".

Winnie, Galen, Outliers not withstanding, the two types can easily be distinguished by their base color: Taken under a cloudy sky, American Agates on the left, Primas on the right: The very interesting (and distinguishing) thing about American Agates is that under fluorescent light, their bright red appears beefy red. Taken with automatic white balance under compact fluorescent light: I see some hand gathering and cut lines on the American Agates. No cut lines on the Primas, but I'm not real good at deciphering that. Comments??

Think that weight is for 100 marbles. Same distribution of sizes between primas and cerise. Perhaps primas weigh a bit more? Perhaps empty boxes which hold 50 marbles weigh more than twice 25 count boxes?

Ah! You're correct. I mis-read the ad. Partitioned display boxes were the 100 count assorted slag boxes.

Here are two examples of beat up boxes that probably still have their factory contents. Eddie Schubert purchased this from a "little old lady" at a Kansas City show in 1991 or 1992. She knew little about the actual marbles, having had them given to her in childhood and stored in the attic for many years. It was Eddie's second show, and all he knew was that they were corkscrews but not oxbloods, which were the preferred collectable Akros at that time. Apparently these marbles are very difficult to find in the wild. This box surfaced on eBay some 10 years ago. I thought it was filled with American Agates, since Gropper also sold CA marbles. But less than 3 years ago, it was used by the Peltier gurus to positively identify a prima agate. Before that, no one knew what a prima agate really looked like.

The way the adds are printed those appear to be listed under Imported marbles???. Only the GENUINE AGATES and FLINTS are imported. Look at the (wholesale) prices - up to $81 for 100, 7/8 - 1" You could buy a (small) box car load of Peltiers for that! Is that page 1920 or the year????? Yes I would assume that is a page number and they are Peltiers. Correct. It's a 1927 ad. The glass agates are Peltier - at least the Cerise and Prima. Akro used the word "onyx" as well. And boxed as one would expect. Why would you expect that? I've never seen that arrangement. The Cerise were packed 25 to a box in three different sizes. The Primas were packed 50 to a box, also in three different sizes. Wonder what they meant by "assorted color combinations", for the Primas? Gropper sold only assortments of mixed colors except Cerise. Cerise were the only slags they sold separately Akro did that as well, with their Cardinal Reds. I assume the partitioned display boxes were the 100 count assorted slag boxes??? nope. The Cerise were 25 to a box and the Prima 50 to a box.

That Gropper/Peltier packing arrangement makes sense, and I doubt any Akro marbles were sent to Ottawa. But Gropper must also have had other packing locations. Are you also saying Peltier never sold any bulk (unpacked) marbles, as Akro did in wooden crates? Look here, at the way Prima and Cerise agates are packed. Never seen anything like it in person and no mention of Gropper, but that may not mean much. Did Gropper do ALL the packing for Peltier when they were in business together?

Steph, How sure are you the ad is from 1939?

I agree a beat up box usually makes the authenticity of the contents suspect. But in this case, the integrity of the 40 count spiral onyx box is good (corners, sides, top and bottom are intact), as if the box was handled a lot, but the contents not necessarily used. The marbles are not played with (some chipped, but the chips are in the box); I'm pretty sure the contents are original. Bought it on eBay in 2008 and was in touch with the owner, who was born in 1919 and not a marble collector. His name is written on the bottom of the box. The marbles are No.1 (not the usual No.0 for Akros 40 count boxes) and it would be very difficult for anyone, especially a non-marble collector, to back fill with unplayed marbles. It's only been a few decades since anyone has been able to sort out Peltier marbles from Akro from Christensen, etc. (except perhaps the people at M.Gropper and Sons, may they R.I.P.)

Galen, What are all those dug Akros doing in that nice CAC box?

That "variance in opacity or transparency from one run to the next" will surely confound identification. For example, it's been said that a bluish tinge identifies a CA moon. Well, I wonder if all CA moons have a blueish tinge, or if all moons with a bluish tinge are CA. The same can probably be said for most characteristics of moonies - cut lines, wisps, orange glow, perhaps even feathering. Even if we come up with some hard evidence that will identify a particular maker, absence of evidence may not be evidence the marble was made elsewhere.

Here is the CA Moons box, pictured in one of Grist's earlier books. A couple of the marbles have been played with, and I can't vouch that any of the rest are original to the box, but they do look reasonably matched. All glow. I can't decipher any blue tinge, but I may be colorblind. Here are the marbles from this Moons box next to the moons marbles from the box pictured in the first post of this thread: comments?

Yeah, mine too.