hdesousa

This is about as close as I can come to saying that Gropper bought from Akro. Probably happened just after Gropper and Peltier had their falling out, as these 40 count National Onyx boxes originally had (what looks like, to me, non-feathered) Peltier onyx ("slags"), but after the breakup, at a time when Akro only had spiral onyx for sale, as they were no longer making striped onyx ("slags") in 1932, Gropper had to make do with Akro's spiral onyx. BTW, George Souris, the king of marble company advertising, tells me he has not seen any Gropper ads dated after 1932. Did the Peltier/Gropper breakup also help finish off M.Gropper & Sons? 'Original' Gropper National Onyx: (everyone agree these are Peltier?) Same box with Akro spiral onyx, with a couple Peltier feathered onyx: It's easy to dismiss these boxes (especially the one with Akros) as being "backfilled", but they were bought on eBay from non-marble people and the marbles match in condition and 'patina' (dust).

a nice CA/Gropper box

Ann, My one cerise agate box may not have the original marbles. Don't remember where I got it, and many look played with. They all have that orangy hue, but only a few have a seam (that I can clearly make out). I'm guessing whoever backfilled it thought orange = cerise. Hansel

"an un-opened box from old stock" might drive you truly nuts. There are numerous boxes out there (mainly Akro) filled with a matching set of 25 marbles that do not resemble what the box is labeled, all unplayed-with and rarely if ever found in the wild. That could be a subject of another thread. What is probably a reliable method of determining the true I.D. of a marble is to examine the contents of several boxes obtained from different sources, preferably non-marble people (thank you eBay), which have, say at least 90% identical unplayed-with marbles . For example, I posted pics of three Akro Moonie boxes, one No.1 and two No.2, all from different sources, and which contain matching marbles that do not glow and have fish eyes. That should be pretty reliable evidence that Akro made moonies, 11/16 to 3/4" which do not glow and have fish eyes. Another reliable (but still not foolproof) way of identifying a marble is if a relatively rare marble is found in a matching mint set. e.g. The box of Primas which Ann pictured in post #3 I would say with a high degree of certainty that these are the real McCoy. "I apologize if the blue tint has caused confusion, it's just the rule I have used for many years" You should stop apologizing. This is a discussion - anything you say could be useful - and can be held against you. :-) I'll check my CA moons for cut lines and a blue tint.

Scott, Do you have any better evidence than "someone told me so", that CA moons have a blue tint? The orange glow on the dug Akros is good evidence that some small Akros glow. But I have several boxes containing Christensen Agate "Worlds Best Moons" and have not noticed any of them having a blue tint, but will check next time the sun comes out. I'm not familiar with Akro's term "white flintie". Do you mean "flint moonies" ? see http://www.mibcollectors.com/view_lot.php?marble_lot_id=6740&back_link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mibcollectors.com%2Fmarble_types.php%3Fkeyword%3Dmoonie%26keyword_refinement%3D4%26exclude_keywords%3D%26photos_only%3D%26individual%3D%26condition_start%3D%26condition_end%3D%26size_start%3D%26size_end%3D%26price_start%3D%26price_end%3D%26status%3D%26orderby%3D10%26offset%3D%26quicksearch%3D%26limit_member_id%3D%26searching%3D1%26limit_marble_collection_id%3D%26submitted%3D1&back_link_description=

Interesting. Some of my Akro moonies glow, some don't. Some 5/8" do, some don't. The 11/16" and 3/4" don't. Do you have anything larger than 5/8" that glows?

Scott, how do you know those are CA moons?

Last one for now; Bought at a Skinner's auction seven years ago. None glow, except for the one smaller marble in the upper left corner, looking quite out of place. All have fisheyes.

Here's one with none of it's original marbles. I bought the box from Marblealan and the marbles from Craig Snyder. The marbles came out of a crate of Akro marbles. They all glow, have wisps of translucent white, some form corkscrews and/or fish eyes. And here's another from Marblealan, the way I got it. All glow, all have fish-eyes.

Yes, very strange, and it won't be a simple answer, especially with Akro. Here's a Moonie box from the Running Rabbit auction in 1998 They look like a matched set of marbles, all with "fish eyes" and none glow. Here's one I recently got on eBay from non-marble dealers. The only marbles which have that orange glow are the two smaller ones. All marbles have "fish eyes".

Akro Moonies may be the easiest to identify. They don't have that orange glow. At least none of these do, and they all have that clear "fish eye" channel going through the marble. Marbles look original to the box. Don't know what that turquoise cc marble is doing there though.

Then to make things more complicated, the marbles in this CA World's Best Moons box (can't vouch that they are original, but they certainly looked matched) also have that orange back-lit glow and internal wisps (some of which look hand gathered).

Yes, the internal wispy threads are a major characteristic, but they might not be seen in all milkies. Here are two National Milkie boxes. Don't remember where I got the upper box from. The marbles vary a bit in size and coloration density. They all have that orange back lit glow and internal threads. Some have that "fish eye" characteristic of Akros, which could well be incidental. (Do some Acme Realers have "fish eyes"?) The lower box is from a Bob Block auction 16 years ago. They look like a matched set of marbles. All have an orange glow, but none show those internal wisps, probably because the coloration is too dense to make that out.

You'd be surprised how many marble collectors are colorblind. Some 25 years ago, when the Columbus marble meet was held in the Lenox Inn (a two story motel with day rates), and people were less tuned into the sensitivities of others, but everyone seemingly had thicker skins, I brought along a set of Ishihara color plates for entertainment when marble activity was slow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishihara_color_test We had great fun guffawing the colorblind - about one in five collectors, many more than expected, had some kind of colorblindness.

Mike, do the three milkies (why do you say "possible milkies"?) have a slight orange glow when back-lit? Clyde, how do you identify your marbles? In other words, how do you distinguish between a milkie, moon and moonie, especially if you're using your examples for identification? I often assume the marbles in my boxes may have been "polluted". For example, I see at least two types of marbles in my milkies box identical to the one you recently won at Morphy's: http://morphyauctions.hibid.com/lot/13723481/peltier-national-milkies-box-set-?cat=0&sort=1&hide=0&qs=1&view=0&aView=0&q=Peltier+National+Milkies+Box+Set.&selCat=0 And only two of the marbles here have that orange glow - the two smallest marbles in the box, which are probably "pollution". http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Akro-Agate-2-Moonies-Flinties-Marbles-Org-Box-/201050348266

Here's Mike Barton's pic of Peltier marbles. This is what Pelt milkies look like:

Nice and valuable pic, thanks. Are all red Peltier "slags" cerise agates? Presumably you dug these marbles at Peltier and we can assume they were made there? If you don't mind, I'll copy this pic to Steph's new topic on moons/moonies/milkies. From your pic we can see what a milkie looks like. I have a couple boxes of milkies, but don't know for sure if the marbles are original.

Mike, Tel Gino those are all fake prima agates. Here are some real ones.

Here's more evidence that Gropper sold Akro, unless Peltier made spirals? Bought this box on eBay 6 years ago from non marble people. Marbles all have the same dusty "patina" and have left marks on the box as if they'd been together for a long time. There is at least one feathered slag and a row of white slags mixed in with spirals.

Clyde, My guess is that the person who pasted the typed label on the bottom of the box was a Gropper salesman. The box was probably originally set up with Peltier products as printed on the inside of the lid. Sometime after Gropper started selling Akro marbles, it was converted to sell Akro marbles, and that's when the handwritten Akro sticker and Akro marbles were put in it. No idea what is handwritten in pencil on the typed label. I'd originally thought it was a kid's scribbling, but a more careful look after you asked shows it was more purposeful. Here it is correct way up. Any bright ideas?

It can be said with some certainty that the white marbles are CA moons. Anyone know of a reliable way of distinguishing CA moons, Akro moonies and Peltier milkies?

The Akro sticker corresponds to the typewritten prices for National Onyx. i.e. # 0 - 150 c #1 - 160 c #2- 180 c

Pretty sure Gropper also sold Akro marbles. Have a Gropper box of matched Akro spirals.

Mike, How do you tell a Peltier cerise red from an Akro cardinal red?

Also, the typewritten price list here: http://marbleconnection.com/topic/19281-sample-kit-nationalg-onyx-marbles/ describes 7 different colors of National Onyx marbles; white is one of the colors.