oldmarblenut

This is my attempt at Murrine, simple cane fragments assembled in complex millefiori design.

my mistake... murrine with 2 "R" similar to millefiori, glass patterns made from simple cane fragments, millefiori being complex cane patterns.

Very nice Hansel, it actually looks like a JC having the minimal one dark blue strand, I forgot to add that part about JC's, they must contain at least one black or dark blue strand to be consider a JC. also the strands can be broken but most often are not. As I said, I have no clue why they were called English type, I can only speculate. It is known that a few glassworkers who fled Murano went to England and opened shop in the 1700's and also some traveled to Germany for employment teaching their techniques of making latticino, Lutz, murrine and aventurine. I hope I get an answer soon from at least one of the Italians about marble making, that could open up a whole new can of worms.

From the 7th. century until present day they have made some of the finest glassware, they perfected and advanced most every technique in glassmaking, it is actually surprising they are not known for exporting marbles, I have just sent 2 emails to Italian glassblowers I know asking this question, lets see what sort of reply I get.

Italians at Murano using German marbles? I highly doubt that they used old German marbles to make those clowns in the 50's and 60's, sheesh, the Italians were the masters of glass during their time, to think that they used anything but their own glass is absolutely out of the question and quite absurd. They were so serious about it that if you were a glassblower with any skill you most likely spent the rest of your life in their factory! glassworkers were not allowed to leave and giving up their professional secrets was punishable by death! So serious that glassworkers avoided prosecution for high crimes, so serious they were able to carry swords and marry into noble families without question! That's serious! No there is no chance that happened, the fact is the Italians made their own marbles on the island of Murano!

I just went through my 10+ pounds of German marble cullet and fragments bought when the diggers hit Lauscha.... I did not find any "English style" colors other than a fragment of an Indian with a bright orange stripe on the surface, the brightest color common is yellow, the rest seem dull or muddied reds and oranges. I cannot say my 10 pounds determines they do not exist in someone else's Lauscha fragments.

Regarding Italian marbles.... I can say for certain Italy made glass marbles even though there are no reports in the books about them making marbles, all you have to do is look at the Murano mid century glass clowns, many hold onionskin and JC type marbles! They were made in the 1950-1960's.

I will keep my mouth shut and my ears open from now on in regards to this subject. We need clarification on the terminology, why were they called English style?

I am not sure why or who named them or where they were made, I would guess "English style" meant they were made according to an English design. English glass companies made the codd bottles and the marbles inside them so I can say England made those particular marbles by machine. Bristol glass refers to colors made in English glass, Thomas Webb was an English glassmaker using unique colors, he invented Burmese glass as per the request of the Queen after she returned from a trip from Burma, she admired the Burmese sunset and commissioned Mr. Webb to come up with the new color. England obviously had the capability to make handmade marbles but I cannot say with any certainty that England actually made the "English style" but I would guess they were of English design hence the name? German style potato salad came from German recipe so I would think English style marbles came from English recipe??

Well, Stanley Block's book "antique end of day marbles" notes them as a separate category, English style beginning on page 88, I would guess someone speculated they were of English design when he wrote the book? Nothing states they were made in England, then again nothing states where any of the marbles were made, Germany or otherwise. To me "English style" would indicate their design came from England, as I think most collectors believe??

England & Great Britain are the same to me so OK, maybe I'm dumb I thought Great Britain was of a 3 island group being England, Scotland and Wales? As for the English style (not named GB style) marbles found on board sets made in Germany, were these from un-opened original boxes? I've seen just about every marble made found on solitare sets, even ones sold with the original box, I don't think Akro or Peltier ever produced them? I don't see a point in arguing over it, we all have our own opinions and mine is firm until there is proof otherwise, the bright colors are English (post 1900) marbles, made in GB LOL. As for them needing to import fuel for furnaces, many glass factories in those days were still fueled by wood and coal and in some cases heating oil. India still has some glass furnaces run by oil and diesel fuel mix.

OK, it's fair to disagree however... why wouldn't the Germans use the bright colors themselves, maybe they didn't like bright and pretty colors?? Don't most of the books and research attribute the bright colors to English (post 1900) marbles?? I can't argue with what has been decided years ago without some solid evidence so I'll stick to them being English.

A really good question would be... when was selenium added to glass to make those bright reds and yellows? could they be modern (post 1900) colors?

JC's could have been made using individual canes of color, the reason that the colors run pole to pole and the reason for no background color in most cases, also I think JC's are English made giving them the brighter colors , onionskins are made using transparent frit over an opaque white or yellow base and will rarely have 100% color pole to pole, also note that on almost all onionskins there are only transparent colors on top of white or yellow background, i.e. ruby, cobalt or green, the English colors are a bit more modern and contain many bright opaque colors and very few transparents. Any JC with broken color lines could be near the end of cane where the individual color canes run out, or maybe they should be classified as English onions??? Either way, the old definitions stand firm. we cannot re write the books and research of the early collectors and change the definitions, adding a new classification (English onions) could be a possibility as we all know the bright opaque colors were English and the classic ruby, cobalt and forest green transparents were German. Definitely some clarification is needed. Greg11 mentioned in another thread the newer European marbles that hit the market some time ago that were great looking handmades with bright colors, there was a lot of speculation they were not old yet showed ground and faceted pontils. also these marbles were not found in the old collections, they just suddenly appeared.

Clouds are marbles that have designs consisting of mainly spots of frit color and not stretched out lines as in onions, a single pontil cloud is the first off cane, a cloud with 2 pontils would be the second off cane and does show some stretching of the colors yet still has spots present. An onionskin can come from the same cane as clouds, I believe most were made from the same cane, they were just 3rd off or later giving them more stretching of the frit colors. Clouds are rarer than onions as only 1 or 2 could be made off the cane. I think very few clouds if any were a one off type marble, it doesn't make sense to take the time to make a one off marble in the old factories, production was key and the time it takes to color and case would eat up valuable production time. This also reflects my opinion of CA Guineas, I always believed they must have been made cane style and cut onto the rollers by hand, a single seam Guinea was a first off cane and does show individual spots opposite the seam, the rest of the Guineas had 2 seams/cuts and had more of a stretched design with less spots present. Bill Tow had a couple of my Sguineas I made using that very same method when I restored the old Vitro machine at Wheaton. As for the argument about the black lines around the colors on clowns, most opaque red and yellow glass frit contain selenium, selenium will react with the tin in opaque white giving a brown to black color blend. note there is no black line around any green or blue, those colors do not contain selenium. So noting this fact, do the marbles being identified and sold as clowns that do not have a black line around all the colors must not be clowns at all, especially if they do not contain 5 colors. A clown type is either an onionskin or cloud consisting of 5 or more distinct colors not including the base color. blends do not count as an individual color nor do specks of dirt on the white or yellow base color.

referring to the black reactive line around the yellow and red spots... back in the day, when 2 colors touched and made another color it was called a blend. many arguments were raised about the 3rd color.

I still don't see the black line around the green and blue spots? JW's second marble does show 5 distinct colors, orange yellow red blue and green, I would call it a clown for sure, notice the blue and green have no outlines. on the first JW marble all the colors look to be floating above a white core, some of the blue and green are transparent giving a tint to the core, it does show 5 colors floating making it a clown?. I don't consider tiny specks of dirt on the white as a color.

Clyde is correct about the JC and onionskin def. according to the old terms... Maybe something changed and us older marble collectors need to catch up?? The black line around the color spots on a clown is not another color, it's actually a reaction between some of the colors laying on the opaque white or yellow, in most cases opaque yellow will react on opaque white, also most transparent colors will not leave the reactive line, look at most onionkins with ruby or cobalt on the white, no reaction, I am pretty sure it is basically something in the opaque colors like yellow or red and orange causing the reaction. I'd like to meet the old German glass factory worker who could place a black dot under every color spot on a clown. According to the "black line theory" take a good look a Jeroen's marble, there is no black line around the blue or green colors. So doe's this now disqualify it as being a clown??? I never heard Hansel's def. until this post about the black line having to be present, I've always known a clown to be either an onion or cloud consisting of 5 or more colors, not including the reactive black line. Maybe BB can chime in about this? Also never heard of a JC clown, they were just JC's with extra colors. As time goes by I notice a lot has changed about marble definitions, I'll stick to the old terms and rules as that is what we grew up with and what I learned from the old marble dealers like Stanley and Bob Block and Bert Cohen. I'm still looking for that rare 1964 Chevrolet Mustang Cadillac with suicide doors painted in midnight white.

I think the old definition was it had to contain 5 or more colors other than the base color? I would call the marbles pictured... clouds

How about some solid bricks with little to no white....

I've heard those aqua green glass balls were also used in water purification systems (scrubbers) and used as mill balls for polishing soft metals like aluminum?? I have a few pounds of them ugly buggers.

Looks like a brushed transparent, aren't they the same as a tiger eye? I was never much of a Vitro lover so I really don't know about dating them.

I'll stick my neck out a little. Egypt, Rome (Southern Italy), modern Italy, Czechoslovakia, Germany, England, Japan, China, Mexico, USA, and?? I would think most modern countries have machines to make glass spheres of some sort? oops, you did say marble machine.... I don't think the Egyptians or Romans had them. I give up

As a lead gaffer most glassworkers take much pride in their works, even in the factories of today like Fenton, the gaffer was the #1 spot, he set the pace and held the responsibility of his crew to produce the wares, I'm sure they felt "special" as they had the highest skills of the team and needed to maintain those skills to stay #1. In the old German marble factories I have always speculated the canes were made by a decorator and passed on to the gaffers for finishing, this would explain the open cores and mixed cane marbles. Typical glass factory team... gatherer, decorator, gaffer and finisher, sometimes the finisher position was another spot depending on the wares made the team could be as much as 6 workers on a single line.

I like that looper!