Should Oxblood Contain Red?

[marboman]

Steve, If we met at the corner of raw umber and burnt siena in which direction on the color wheel would you go to achieve your subjective color of oxblood ? Bo

Edna,you are correct,stay right ther is good.

Now I will use the example of a bear.The raw umber bear is brown,just brown,If you walked up on him at the river huntin marbles,what would be your reaction be?You would most likely back away quickly.Now the same bear but I will add a little red to his teeth,and his claws,tiny bit of red on his back and some red is his eyes.This is a different bear altogether,at least is my mind.If oxblood didn't have red,then this extra quality would be lost.Red is more than a color it's part of our warning system,hardwired now after millions of years in our brain.I agree also that oxblood should contain some black,as blood does dries to black, before a scab forms.So I would say oxblood should contain red.

[Steph]

What is red? I've never been quite sure. My mother knew it as an artist but I couldn't keep it straight. This is what the computer thinks is red:

RED

Do you mean that should be in oxblood?

Funny thing about red ... I think clinical tests have shown that what males tend to consider "true red" is different from what females tend to consider "true red". Or maybe the test was about what males considered the best shade of red being different from what females tend to be attracted by. Like the red which would appeal on the most visceral level and help make a sale.

Funny thing about the black, I have been under the impression that most oxblood does not contain black. Once upon a time I heard that what we perceive as black is actually transparent green. Alan's post in that other oxblood thread might be the first time I heard anyone say that both green and black were possible.

[marboman]

I am talking about a primary color of red,a pure pigment.By mixing alot of brown and a little red I would have a redish but mostly brown color.On the other hand if I mix alot of red with a little brown I would have a brownish but mostly red color.Some where in that spectrum is the color oxblood.Oxblood would be redish brown earth tone,and if it had some black in it all the better.

[Steph]

Here are a couple of examples of oxblood I found in non-marble contexts. How well do they fit with what you are picturing?

. . (1)

. . (2)

Late additions ..... another palette example, another glaze example and a much more brown example in dyed wool:

(click to enlarge)

. . . . . . (3), (4), (5)

[Akro gatherer]

I mean no harm but you all have way too much time on your hands.

[marboman]

I think that color and items shown would be a good example of what I would consider oxblood.Oxblood would fall in a range from bright/wet to dark/dry so more than one shade of oxblood would be possible.Here are some marbles that were made with the intention of creating oxblood IMHO.I believe these marbles lack the warmth that more red would have given,there are black pigments also that help make the case for these being oxblood.I will say then that these marbles are more brown than red making them examples of oxblood containng a little red, the very minimum amount necessary to be called oxblood. Your oxblood red example would be at the warmer (containing more red) end of the oxblood range.Blood also drys to black making the subject more interestig.Oblood is not one color,but it will contain red.Bo

[marboman]

This marble is one I believe was made by Akro Agate, an oxblood ace? Not sure about all the corkscrew definitions.It was a beauty once and a young boy made good use of it,I can just imagine.It will make a good example to demonstrate the way the oxblood runs on the surface of the marble.See where it is chipped and the translucent color is right under the oxblood.Is it true that oxblood must be thin and on the surface only? or can it plunge in and through the marble and still be cosidered ox as applied to marbles.Just asking,Bo

[oldmarblenut]

Oxblood may swirl all through some marbles, ie..oxblood swirls and bricks, however, it lies on the surface of most marbles, I think this was due to the cost of the color, much cheaper to just lay some on the surface than to let it swirl throughout.

The range of color in oxblood shows from very pale light oxblood to rich deep ox with black streaks, most likely due to temperature and melt cycles.

Copper being the key ingredient, makes green, blue and red glass, careful not to forget gold aventurine, the best oxblood when burned out.

[Alan]

This marble is one I believe was made by Akro Agate, an oxblood ace? Not sure about all the corkscrew definitions.It was a beauty once and a young boy made good use of it,I can just imagine.It will make a good example to demonstrate the way the oxblood runs on the surface of the marble.See where it is chipped and the translucent color is right under the oxblood.Is it true that oxblood must be thin and on the surface only? or can it plunge in and through the marble and still be cosidered ox as applied to marbles.Just asking,Bo

Bo: In all things "marbles" - there are the general rules which are correct most of the time. Then there are the exceptions which intrude from time to time. Generally, oxblood use in marbles shows oxblood as a surface feature, swirl or veneer. Of course this would vary according to the machine's set-up on a given day, how the machine was adjusted, glass temperature and how some components of the machine were worn (i.e. spinner cups etc).

Here is a single-point example of a fractured Akro oxblood swirl on a white matrix in an attempt to shed a little light on your question:

[marboman]

Thank you for your responses and examples,gentlemen.I am posting what I believe to be Akro Agate Hero's (Brown Thrasher),they seem like good oxblood examples to me,and black pigment is present.Bo

[Akro gatherer]

in my opinion oxblood is a shade of red. not translucent at all. my camera is not here at the moment or i would put some pics up but anywho there are alot of nice examples here and on ebay of oxblood.

[Akro gatherer]

This marble is one I believe was made by Akro Agate, an oxblood ace? Not sure about all the corkscrew definitions.It was a beauty once and a young boy made good use of it,I can just imagine.It will make a good example to demonstrate the way the oxblood runs on the surface of the marble.See where it is chipped and the translucent color is right under the oxblood.Is it true that oxblood must be thin and on the surface only? or can it plunge in and through the marble and still be cosidered ox as applied to marbles.Just asking,Bo

that looks like a lemonade oxblood, unsure of pattern, if i see the pic correct. would have been a smoker if better condition.

[marboman]

that looks like a lemonade oxblood, unsure of pattern, if i see the pic correct. would have been a smoker if better condition.

Thank you,but the marble does not flouresce,It is a shooter too.It would be a humdinger if it wasn't beat to heck.Thanks for your input.Bo

[Akro gatherer]

i have just been told that oxblood can be different colors. you learn something new everyday.

[MARBLEMISER]

I mean no harm but you all have way too much time on your hands.

i am at this time banning myself from posting because i have nothing to offer and am rude. so go ahead and tear down jabos efforts, fight about vintage and contemporary, discuss whatever apparently i am not wanted or needed. so i will be back when i decide that i have learned how to behave and have a better grasp on marbles. i thought it was a fun, light-hearted thing. Never knew it was so serious.

--------------------

It's a good day to go diggin'

So what happened to the self imposed banning?

You're here. Why? For what? To cause trouble?

to your corner & let these people have their discussion>

marblemiser

[Akro gatherer]

So what happened to the self imposed banning?

You're here. Why? For what? To cause trouble?

to your corner & let these people have their discussion>

marblemiser

lololololololololololololol sorry but mind your own business. i would have said worse but i'm not that type of person. :Cartoon_177:

[marboman]

Let's all try to get along,I see now this is avery slippery slope. Marblemiser thank you for your support but I am interested in what Akrogatherer will say.How can oxblood be another color? Do they exist? do you have pics? I really can't imagine oxblood being any other color than a shade of brown/red.If I was to remove the word ox from blood we would still have the word blood.Websters Universal College Dictionary defines blood as "the red fluid that circulates through the heart,arteries,and veins of vertebrates,consisting of plasma in which red blood cells and white blood cells,and platelets are suspended" I would like to see your pictures and hear your reasoning.Thanks Bo

[Akro gatherer]

i spoke to a frIend of some of us and he told me that he believes that oxblood can be different colors. i have no examples sorry. just someone who knows marbles and very well told me that. i am just a messenger. BUT......i do have alot of akro oxblood and it is all red and you cannot see into it. i have swirls, patches, bricks and a cork i think. BTW.......ILOVE YOU ALL :Happy_050:

[marboman]

Then we agree,oxblood is red.Bo

[Akro gatherer]

the oxblood i have is red. all akro and maybe an mfc brick or two. plus i believe that i now posess a few jabo oxbloods. all red but thats just my collection. i cant speak for others.

[marboman]

Then we all agree that oxblood can only be brownish/red. Thanks Akrogatherer.

[Steph]

Agreed, oxblood is a shade of red. Blood is red! !! what else?!!!! lololol

However, I cannot resist the usual disclaimer: If qualifiers are used judiciously (or implicitly understood), I'm not going to argue when someone uses the name "oxblood" for non-standard examples. I believe the purple here in Windy's photo is derived from aventurine, in the same way as red oxblood. So I will not argue when it is called "purple oxblood".

Why is it purple? I don't know. Does it have a blue "contaminant" blending with the copper based glass? Or is it some "ionic" thing? Or what? Whatever the cause, I'm not going to argue with the description "purple oxblood" when Edna uses it to describe the family. (Is this a Hardcore?)

[marboman]

Hello Steph,first of all I don't want to argue with anyone ,I would prefer to reason with you concerning this marble. You reason that since this marble was made in the same manner and with the intention to make oxblood then it must be oxblood and can be called oxblood regardless of the color that results?If I intended to make a marble and it came out flat as a pancake could I still discribe it as an orb?/ball?/marble? after all that was my intention,and process?I do see some streaks of red on the marble ,could that be what is oxblood about this marble?Is there aventurine in the purple? With all respect to you, Windy and Edna I simply dissagree with this new expanded definition of oxblood.Just curious about other colors or is purple oxblood the only new definition/addition? I will also say that the colors of the marble are very unusual.Off white, green,purple and red.These colors lack a pattern of coherance IMHO.I think too many colors, my eye identifies a disunified color,purple.Just one mans opinion of moonlight.Bo

[Alan]

At the risk of butting into what seems to have become a semi-private debate - I'll offer this observation:

The term "oxblood" as it is used in the marble collecting hobby is used to refer to a color of glass sometimes used by certain manufacturers as a decorative accent. At the end of the day - any term we use should be reasonably clear and one should be able to hold a marble in the hand, point to it and say "THAT is oxblood". If we attempt to become highly scientific or to embrace all possible permutations into the the 1/100th of one percent of extreme examples - the term becomes less and less distinct, less universally understood and at some point - useless as a descriptive term. We judge by our eyes, our memory and our experience. The terms we use in the hobby (and it IS a hobby... lest we forget) need to be useful, helpful and meet our needs to describe a thing.

If we attempt to over-describe a term beyond practical limits - we run the clear risk of that term becoming useless - and a whole new family of terms being spawned to replace what used to be one.

If there is a true problem in describing oxblood in a way that the 95+ percentile of collectors can agree and use - I have not seen it.

Collectors cannot hold a marble in hand and guess/know the chemical composition of the glass. We judge based upon visual cues.

I had thought that the common definition of oxblood was fairly well acknowledged by most experienced collectors. If re-defining it or defining it better is somehow indicated - I am not aware of the cause that would move us in that direction.

[Steph]

I agree with both of you guys, Bo and Alan.

I don't want to define oxblood out of meaning. I totally want to stick with the "fairly well acknowledged" use of the word. That's why I stood my ground in that heck-acious thread the other day. Mostly "everyone" knows what marble collector's oxblood is. There are other traditional uses of the term but for marble collecting when newbies are asking what oxblood is, they're trying to learn to identify Akro's version.

But there are still people who use the word in other contexts, and as long as care is taken to make the context clear, I have no problem with that. Few people seem to want to say "Vitro oxblood" is "real" oxblood. But some people do still say "Vitro oxblood" and it is not my desire to say they are wrong. I just sit with the other newbies to middle-bies in the pews hoping to learn what they mean by that.

p.s. As far as the purple oxblood, in marble terms it's less of an expansion than saying that certain brick reds are oxblood. That Jabo glass is chemically kin to Akro's version. But the whole galdarned mess can be sidestepped if people will use adjectives well and leave the unadorned name "oxblood" for the accepted standard as seen in Akro and MFC.

p.p.s. I think taking the non-expansionist route might rule out the heroes. Aren't they an Akro red, but not what the 95% call oxblood? I'm not sure, not seeing that red in hand, but I don't remember hearing of oxblood thrashers before.