marblemansion Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Sorry Bill, I must disagree. The Ace has gotta have fire. The catalog page I posted isn't all of the Akro styles ever made. The Moss Agate corks aren't on that page. Carnelians aren't there. At least some of the mibs distributed in Imperial boxes aren't there. Tri-Onyx Agates aren't there - not that those have a translucent base but I'm on a roll. lol But anyway, the Ace is "opalescent". There are some corks which I can't place with a name. But I'm not ready to chuck mystery marbles into the Ace heading. When all the translucent mibs get lumped together, that shortchanges Aces. Edit: lol, did you add the moss agate question while I wasn't looking? Yes, some of the translucent base corks are moss agates. How many different color combos? That would be fun learning about. If that's possible. wait wait wait.... how can the one you showed of Dani's you called a "loosely filled" Ace be thrown into that category? the narrow definition of an Akro Ace would demand the opaque part of cork be a thin line and the base must be a white that appears to opaque until it is back lit and is shown to be opalescent. so a marble such as this one with the translucent base glass doesn't fit a Carnelian, not a Moss Agate, Not an Onyx, not an Imperial - I guess it could be an Akro "Special" - but even the original Akro salesman sampler boxes appear to contradict some names of what we would consider Popeyes and Moss Agates, its enough to make your head hurt trying to figure out what is real and what is not just backfilled boxes; and what name to assign my purple/yellow popeye (that just became a Moss Agate) - or what to now call my entire collection of Moss Agates that are not Moss Agates because they don't cork....mind blowing at the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 the narrow definition of an Akro Ace would demand the opaque part of cork be a thin line and the base must be a white that appears to opaque until it is back lit and is shown to be opalescent. Don't take the narrow definition. Take what is. That sounds flippant but it's serious. Trying to define Aces with words, and trying to take Akro's ad writers' version of the description too literally, rules out some true Aces and might seem to force non-Aces into the category. There are some known examples of Aces. Using those to identify other Aces is better than trying to use words. In my humble opinion. Actually, the marble you are showing looks very much like a Moss Agate. I think that's what it is. As well as I can tell from a small photo. Moss Agates come in corks and patches. (and in swirls which may or may not be loose corks). (p.s., your popeye is not a moss agate.) Oh don't get me started on Specials! LOL I won't go there. (not in this thread ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaboo Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 sorry been busy, hadn't looked at the thread in awhile... moss agates came in 2 types, the early ones looked like corks at one pole, but wondered off at the other, and a patch. the moss agates are not corks. sorry... ok, gotta get busy... TONS OF STUFF to get done! Vegas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 lol. Dani and I don't always have to agree either. :-) I'm still inclined to believe your cork is a moss agate, Bill. Lemonades, limeades, blue eggyolks, etc. are moss agates. But whether I'm right on that one or not, Dani and I are still together on not calling just any translucent mib an Ace. If it doesn't have a name, then I guess it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Here are several angles the base glass is translucent not clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaboo Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 if you come to the july show, I'd be happy to show you the difference in hand! deal? the marble you show would then be a translucent cork. not a moss. unless of course it has the opalescent or moonie glass showing in the base. then it's an ace. But Aces usually have some type of white striations, sometimes heavy, sometimes barely there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Here's something which I don't think is understood perfectly: When were the swiry/corky moss agates made? When were the patch moss agates made? I think it's generally thought that the swirly ones stopped being made very early. But I think they may have overlapped. Didn't the moss agate patches start by 1934? Possibly before 1934, even? Yet the swirly moss agates were being sold into 1935, and maybe 1936, maybe later. Here's a Jan. 1935 ad. I've also seen a 1936 popeye ad which looks like it might have some mossy swirls. And we've seen them in Popeye boxes. (click to enlarge) Jan. 1935 -- Visi Paks Live and in color: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 One major obstacle to learning more about what Akro meant as Aces has been the general lack of awareness that Aces had anything special about them. Most people don't know there was any issue to study. There hasn't been much evidence to debate with or about. I was clueless, for one. I think I've gotten Aces straightened out now, and have discovered a couple in my Akro box, but I also now realize that I don't have a great understanding of what a moss agate is . . . Thought they were simply patches, part transparent (usually colored) glass and part cloudy/milky white, sometimes UV . . . Is there an archived thread on moss agates, maybe? So as not to hijack this one? Thanks, Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Our understanding of the subject continues to be refined. I believe there is an archived thread, started intentionally as a myth buster, but ironically I think it still contains some errors. It might yet be awhile before it all gets nailed down. Dani and I are two of the main online advocates of a more rigorous undertanding of Aces, but as you see she and I don't even see eye to eye on all of the related material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaboo Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 nope we agree Steph, moss swirls were also sold in popeye boxes. that was actually established years ago,. but a moss swirl isn't any part of the ace catagory. ps hey Galen,,, i'll bring some marble examples for hands on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Thanks Dani for taking a generous interpretation! We do agree on the key points of the moss vs. Ace divide but we still disagree about moss corks. And you're going to want to throw a shoe at me for the thread I'm about to start. I know it. A heavy, steel-toed, size 17, studded work boot. I beg for forgiveness in advance! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The marble center top row looks most like the one I have.....so are you saying its a Moss Agate Cork...is it known if Moss Agate swirls were translucent based with 2 opaque colors ? (the box you showed appeared to have a clear/white/opaque color) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The marble center top row looks most like the one I have.....so are you saying its a Moss Agate Cork... Yeas, that's what I've been saying. That's where Dani and I have had a difference of opinion, but that's what I have been saying. is it known if Moss Agate swirls were translucent based with 2 opaque colors ? (the box you showed appeared to have a clear/white/opaque color) The box? Which box? Did you see the blue and yellow ones in the box on the front page? Oh and there is one peeking out of the box above also. Do those count? One Akro ad for moss agates mentions pale green with maroon. I'd like to see that! But maybe I already have - perhaps the "maroon" was oxblood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The box? Which box? Did you see the blue and yellow ones in the box on the front page? Oh and there is one peeking out of the box above also. Do those count? One Akro ad for moss agates mentions pale green with maroon. I'd like to see that! But maybe I already have - perhaps the "maroon" was oxblood. this box labeled as the photo showed Moss Agates: It shows clear based glass with translucent and opaque whites with another opaque color in a cork pattern some even have 2 colors which would qualify them as Popeyes. If those are Moss Agates - well I will be derned. Where is the Akro ad describing the Moss Agates? Has that been posted yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I couldn't qualify any of those as Popeyes with no obvious clear. But It sure seems like Akro started cork production while they were making the mossagates(ades) And ended up making some on the refined corkscrew set up. Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spara50 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Here are some more ads showing moss agates. These are from 1933. Also, notice the descriptions of the types of marbles. Akro 'Spirals' are what we now call Snakes. (careful, these ads are 3 megs each) Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 That's some nice detail. It should spawn a lot of discussion, maybe for years to come. lol Moss Agates are mentioned/shown on all three pages, but with seeming contradictions. Like where the swirly moss description is on the same page as a picture of a box of moss patches. It's an example of one of their patchwork ads. It has a mixture of old and new elements. And some errors, possibly partly due to the disconnect between the people writing the ad and the people who knew the inventory best. But it is still a fabulous source of info if you're patient enough to iron out the wrinkles. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 p.s. check out the bottom gift box. ... edit: moving my way off topic comment. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 AHHHHHH HAH! finally the elusive ads! man thanks Craig - those are some super ads - but Steph - to me this just kills your concept of swirly Moss Agates - they describe down to the bean counter detail what these boxes contain - they have high quality images promoting the items - Akros swirl patterns surely sold better than patch patterns and yet you are trying to tell me the marketing geniuses couldn't get a photo of the swirly Moss Agates next to the description "moonstone glass, soft pastel colors contrasted with more vivid hues in exquisit patterns - pale green with maroon, cream with deep blue" Look at the boxed set....the pale green moonstone base has a patch of maroon and the cream base has a patch of deep blue.....they are describing to the T what the box pictured contains ---- Prize Names are named and pictured and "striping" are specifically mentioned in the last advertisement...so if they intended for Moss Agates to be swirls.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spara50 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Ok, here is another advertisement showing Akro calling moss agates something other than patches. Look at the description of the Popeye box. It shows lemonades, oxbloods, limeades, etc. as being moss agates. However, this ad was very early as you can see by the 250 box. In 1933, the other ads I posted came out showing moss agates as patches. Possibly, the better marbles such as oxbloods were moved into a different category such as Imperials or Special after this point. I have pictures somewhere of 2 Imperial box sets of 25 marbles that contain a mix of oxbloods, limeades and popeyes. These are owned by nephews of an employee that got the boxes in 1935. I will try and track them down. These were what Akro considered the best marbles and only put them in the finest gift sets. More food for thought. LOL... Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I believe its more of a case that they stopped making the swirl types when they went with the patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaboo Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 you are exactly right galen! and look at the moss swirls in the red box.... they are not patches. it is simply a time line in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spara50 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I am not sure about the time line idea unless they just had 1000's of oxbloods, etc. left over in 1935, which may well be. As I mentioned the Imperial boxes from 1935, two years after this ad, still had oxbloods, limeades and popeyes in them. Not trying to argue, just sayin'. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 but Steph - to me this just kills your concept of swirly Moss Agates - If you think that patches have "exquisite patterns" then we're not going to come to a meeting of the minds on this. One thing I've learned from seeing more and more Akro ads is not to be too sure about anything. After you said my concept was killed, Craig posted the Popeye box ad with the moss agates in it. If you want to make the most progress with Akro ads you have to get your head around the idea that the people writing the ads recycled old text and pix, and probably often did not notice or care that some of the stuff was out of date. AND the people who wrote the ads weren't the people who made the marbles. Their terminology and perceptions might not match up for that reason. In Craig's first ad above, the adwriters had an old description of Moss Agates. They pasted it onto the layout. They didn't doublecheck it and modify the old moss agate description when they worked on the rest of the flyer. [Note: all 3 pages are part of the same flyer.] To get the most out of the ads you gotta have checks and balances between what you see in your hand and what is there on the paper. Context matters. You're certainly free to have different perceptions and interpretations than I. I'm just gonna repeat this as I duck out - if you think patches have "exquisite patterns" then we see things very differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spara50 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 One related point. Just like ads today, companies always make products look better than they might actually be by using the very best examples of marbles for the photos. I have seem old Marble King ads for poly bags that are full of oxbloods. What you see and what you get might have been two very different things. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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