Akro Question

[manddrakes]

They look nearly the same. Alans has bleed on the red to give it a brown look. Mine doesn't.

Alans, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=200528712839&si=HoNFKiETU8Gsf89uPdduCnry9fw%253D&viewitem=

Mine, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150511607222&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

Please be nice.

[Steph]

What is the question?

[manddrakes]

Would Blue Carnelian apply to both or just his due to what looks to me to be a brownish bleed from the red. What would be the correct name for mine? Thanks

[Speed Racer]

Both look the same. Some folks need the base to glow in a Carnelian, others still call them Carnelian glowing base or not.

I say both are Carnelian. IMO

[jeeperman]

I am also of the belief not all carnelian glow. They do seem pretty alike.

[jeeperman]

After discussing these with a friend whom is quite a bit more knowledgable than I....I think neither of these are infact Carnelians. While not all Carnelians glow, these would be simply a two color translucent cork.

For reference here is a Carnelian I have. It is a non glower.

[lstmmrbls]

Is that Oxblood. I do not believe The Carnelians marketed as such by Akro contained Oxblood. As for the first marbles I do not believe they(Carnelians) were corkscrews. Although Akro did carry some color combos of earlier types into the corkscrew era so maybe I may be off on that assumption.

[zaboo]

there have been so many boxes backfilled over the years.. who really knows?! lol

but the carnelian oxbloods were in gift box sets, usually.

and I agree that the carnelians were not corkscrews, but the pre cork, early moss swirls.

Pauls marble is a great example of the correct patterning.

as to what was in what boxes. akro many times stuffed whatever boxes with what was available that day too. look at the popeye boxes Lloyd got, filled with oxbloods and moss swirls. case in point. FWIW :-)

[jeeperman]

It is oxblood. I realize it is not the standard Carnelian. From what I am told Akro produce boxed sets of what they called Carnelians before the corkscrew was introduced. While some may call many marbles Carnelian....that was not what Akro called them.

[jeeperman]

Looks like Dani posted as I was fumbling with keys. lol

[Steph]

I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that all the mossy cork/swirls were pre-cork. I think mossy cork/swirls continued to be made for awhile.

Corks were around by early 1930, whereas Carnelians were advertised as "new" in Jan. 1934. How long would Akro have been calling them "new"?

Paul, are you thinking of Cardinals? They were made before corks were first made, and had a definite pre-cork and cork version. Or Imperials? Those had a pre-cork version and the box stayed in use with other marble types.

Final edit (and fwiw): The mossy swirls were still being advertised in Sept. 1936. The popeye boxes had them in it in the ads. I've got mossy swirls in ads for 1934, 1935 and 1936. That's a long time to have them hanging around as old stock. At least I can't help thinking so.

.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Steph

[jeeperman]

I am not speaking of the Cardinals, but I really can't say how long they were made. Just that I have never seen a box of Carnelian corkscrews.

[zaboo]

yeah, steph is right. they did make both during that time period. sorry about that!....

but what's weird is going thru copies of old documentations and catalogs... time lines are sketchy! and they say the same thing in advertising about carnelians as they do the cornelian. almost word for word!

we do know MOST of the swirly types, the ox bloods, silvers, blues, etc were pre cork right?

the time line as we understand it, and everything can of course overlap, is the handgathered types, then the slag types, then the moss swirls and then corks and finally patches. and I made the mistake of 'carnelians' vs 'cornelians'. DUH! sorry... :-)

oddly enough too, just an observation, many of the early ads and catalogs we have do not have dates! very frustrating! and there's a few boxes in books we know were backfilled and not original. so i think general rules are the only thing that's going to apply unless one has ordering pages direct from the factory, with dates. sure would love to have a few boxes of that stuff, but alas, mostly long gone. akro was famous for quality control, but record keeping? naw....

lol

[jeeperman]

Always good to have a little back and forth convo about these subjects..tis how we get the answers and drive to figure them out. =}

[Steph]

I had put some stuff into my Akro timeline in the study hall. I don't know how caught up I am. My disks crashed and all that. yada yada boo hoo for me. ;-) But I did find Carnelians advertised as "brand new" in July 1933. And I have a few other dated items as well as ones of uncertain date.

I could try to copy some of that over here, including the 1935 and 1936 mossy ones. But I don't want to be too redundant. Check it out here: http://marbleconnection.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=10676&st=20

[manddrakes]

I would have to agree mine is not Carnelian. I will go with two colored translucent. I'm sure both examples are still alittle harder to find. Thank you all for the help. Tons of great information! Thanks for sharing.

[zaboo]

when you look at the page that says the akro line is complete? it lists the moss agates first.. I am guessing they meant the mossy corks...since all the ones there with the exception of sparklers, were cork types.

other bits of food for thought.. just thinking outloud here..(could be dangerous!) when the popeye boxes were found having swirls instead of corks, some speculated on their originality... until Lloyd found the NOS of them some years back. until that happened, pretty much everyone thought only corks were found in the popeye boxes. mind you, we're going back at least 10 years, but it shows how things can change! because, once again, there were no records kept being really specific! all we can do is look at old advertisements and catalogs.

remember, akro had literally TONS of stored marbles. look at all the stuff master got when they bought it all up?

not to get off the subject... but I did. lol

[zaboo]

well shoot, we certainly took a turn at the fork in the road on this thread didn't we? ROFL

[Steph]

when you look at the page that says the akro line is complete? it lists the moss agates first.. I am guessing they meant the mossy corks...since all the ones there with the exception of sparklers, were cork types.

That's one of my favorite examples. They say the Akro line is complete in more than one ad. And if I recall correctly the first appearance of that was in 1930. When obviously there was more to come.

In at least one version of that "Akro line is complete" ad they seem to show two kinds of Moss Agates. And they also seem to describe two kinds of Moss Agates. But they splice together the descriptions and the photos/illustrations in an odd way. They appear to be drawing material from three different time periods. When I try to point out which piece came from where, people say they're getting a headache. So I won't try that again. But I can SEE where they've mixed things up.

p.s. When they talk about Moss Agates with "exquisite patterns" are they talking about patches? I don't think so! lol

[Steph]

well shoot, we certainly took a turn at the fork in the road on this thread didn't we? ROFL

[lstmmrbls]

While it seems certain that Akro was making the swirl types while making corks(no way they converted all machinery at the same time IMO) that is a very good point that years of inventory where sometimes stored at marble companies.

[jeeperman]

That is a very interesting point that is a tough one to discuss when it is brought up. I wish there were some kind of documentation. I mean there had to have been quite a bit of work to be done and not something just done in a shift change. I would think they did not flip back and forth. I can imagine that without first hand knowledge we may never have a solid answer.