Very Rare Kind Of "mosaic Stoneware" Marble

[jeroen]

This marble came with the post yesterday. I have never seen one like this before, and I asked some other collectors, but they have not seen it before also.

Jeroen vV thinks he knows what kind of marble this is. It is some kind of "mosaic stoneware". It probably dates from the beginning of the 17th century, and could also be late 16th century. In his study he has seen some stoneware jugs with this same pattern in musea that dates from that period. This pottery is very rare,only a few of this kind of stoneware is known to exist. And this is probably the only know marble of this kind of stoneware. The size is just over 2-3/16 inch.

It is made in a same way as paperweights. They made a lot of small canes and than assemble them on a sphere, and smooth out the surface. This is a very difficult technique, and cost a lot of time. It has some production errors, as two of the "star" patterns are not finished properly.

I have 16th/17th century stoneware marbles, and the glazing is the same kind as this marble. This one has a thick layer of glazing, so the outside of this marble has the aperiance of glass.

Perhaps someone has seen a similar marble, and I hope someone can tell more about this marble, because I could be wrong about what I think it is.

What ever it is, it is a very nice marble!

Jeroen

[Gnome Punter]

You sure this is not clay ?

My wife does this for Jewelry using clay and a toaster.

She takes several thin layers, overlaps them while making indentions and cuts, rolls them all up and makes a cut and she has patterns that look like your marbles.

Like the Milfori

[Steph]

It's gorgeous. Very handsome.

No idea about it though.

[jeroen]

I am pretty sure it is stoneware. I do have several clay (I think they called bird egg) marbles, with many colors. They are about one inch or just bigger. If I take a similar size stoneware marble it is heavier. Stoneware is more dense than clay.

I have just taken the weight of a stoneware marble that has the same size as the mosaic stoneware marble. They both have a weight of 192 grams. So most likely they are made of the same kind of stoneware.

Jeroen

[BobBlock]

Looks like some mochaware types that I have.

[jeroen]

Hello Bob,

Can you put a photo of them here on the forum? Are yours similar like the examples I put here, which I found on internet?

[hdesousa]

Looks like some mochaware types that I have.

Yes, but any idea why you're calling it mochaware, as opposed to agateware?

I know marble collectors seem to favor misnomers - indians (nothing to do with India), chinas (nothing to do with China), lutz (nothing to do with Lutz), end-of-day (for onionskins, which have nothing to do with end of day whimsies), Leightons (nothing to do with Leighton),etc., etc.,, but there is already a precedent for the name agateware in the marble literature to describe these carpet bowls.

See Paul Baumann's "Collecting Antique Marbles" 4th Ed, 2004, Section Two - Carpet Bowls - with Roger Matile - pages 170 and 171. The largest carpet bowl collection in the UK, in the York Castle Museum, has examples of these types of 'marbles' and they are called agateware.

Martha Stewart tells us what mochaware is: (very interesting)

http://www.marthastewart.com/915932/making-mochaware-pottery

and here is an article describing the technique to make agateware, including mosaic agateware, as sen in Jeroen's 'marble'.

www.michelleericksonceramics.com/pdf/CiA2003_Erickson&Hunter.pdf‎

[jeroen]

Hansel,

The last link is not working on my computer.

Jeroen

[hdesousa]

Hansel,

The last link is not working on my computer.

Jeroen

Jeroen,

If you clip and paste the link into your address bar, and after clicking "enter" go up to the address bar and delete everything after .pdf (%E2%80%8E) and then press enter again, it should work.

Sorry, I don't know a simpler way of doing it. Perhaps Steph can fix the link?

Hansel

[MC Marbles]

This should work...

http://www.michelleericksonceramics.com/pdf/CiA2003_Erickson&Hunter.pdf

[jeroen]

Yes, this works. Very interesting article. I think figure 11 and 12 have the same pattern as on my marble.

[JVVmarbles]

Judging by the patterns on this marble, I think it might be as early as the 18th century, around 1780. VERY nice find!

[hdesousa]

Judging by the patterns on this marble, I think it might be as early as the 18th century, around 1780. VERY nice find!

Yes, that is a nice find, but what do you base your estimated age on, or is it that just more "spin"?

The reference I provided above (Erickson and Hunter) does give the date of some similar agateware as 1785, but it also says "...agateware continues to be produced commercially as well as employed in the repertoire of the contemporary studio potter." And also "Ceramics historian John Spargo writes that scroddled ware was manufactured in the nineteenth century exactly as it was in eighteenth-century Stafordshire." (Scroddle ware is an American term for agateware)

How do you know Jeroen's marble may not have been made earlier, or more likely, more recently than 1780?

[Gnome Punter]

It still looks like milliefiori/Murrine which, I read now, was called Mosaic

It is not from stone though

What is Millefiori Glass?

The name millefiori is a blending of the Italian words “mille”, for thousand, and “fiori”, or flower. In other words, millefiori glass contains a thousand flowers-an accurate description of the flowered mosaic pattern featured on millefiori glass and accessories.

The name “millefiori” was coined by A. Pellatt in his book, “Curiosities of Glassmaking.” Prior to that time millefiori beads were simply known as mosaic. The style itself dates back to the Roman times, where millefiori glass such as we know it originated in Murano, Italy in the 15th century and where it could be seen on glassware all across Europe. Today, millefiori remains strongly associated with Venetian glassware. (Glassware produced in Venice, Italy.)

What many people do not realize is that millefiori glass did not, in fact, originate in Italy. Italy was only the birthplace of millefiori as we know it today. Millefiori has been found dating as far back as Mesopotamian civilizations and the Roman Empire, and several examples of Millefiori work have been tracked back to the renaissance. After that point, however, the technique all but disappeared until the 18th century. It was reborn in Silesia-Bohmia; however, it wasn’t long before factories in Venice, England and France began manufacturing vast quantities of millefiori canes.

[JVVmarbles]

Yes, that is a nice find, but what do you base your estimated age on, or is it that just more "spin"?

The reference I provided above (Erickson and Hunter) does give the date of some similar agateware as 1785, but it also says "...agateware continues to be produced commercially as well as employed in the repertoire of the contemporary studio potter." And also "Ceramics historian John Spargo writes that scroddled ware was manufactured in the nineteenth century exactly as it was in eighteenth-century Stafordshire." (Scroddle ware is an American term for agateware)

How do you know Jeroen's marble may not have been made earlier, or more likely, more recently than 1780?

Hi Hansel, also the type of glazing, which is similar to Dutch pottery from that period, makes me think of that early date, but it's just my opinion.

[BobBlock]

Hansel's correct, I meant to type agateware not mochaware. Old age creeping in.

[hdesousa]

Hi Hansel, also the type of glazing, which is similar to Dutch pottery from that period, makes me think of that early date, but it's just my opinion.

Jeroen vV,

what type of glazing does the marble have, that is similar to Dutch pottery from that period?

[hdesousa]

It still looks like milliefiori/Murrine which, I read now, was called Mosaic

It is not from stone though

What is Millefiori Glass?

The name millefiori is a blending of the Italian words “mille”, for thousand, and “fiori”, or flower. In other words, millefiori glass contains a thousand flowers-an accurate description of the flowered mosaic pattern featured on millefiori glass and accessories.

The name “millefiori” was coined by A. Pellatt in his book, “Curiosities of Glassmaking.” Prior to that time millefiori beads were simply known as mosaic. The style itself dates back to the Roman times, where millefiori glass such as we know it originated in Murano, Italy in the 15th century and where it could be seen on glassware all across Europe. Today, millefiori remains strongly associated with Venetian glassware. (Glassware produced in Venice, Italy.)

What many people do not realize is that millefiori glass did not, in fact, originate in Italy. Italy was only the birthplace of millefiori as we know it today. Millefiori has been found dating as far back as Mesopotamian civilizations and the Roman Empire, and several examples of Millefiori work have been tracked back to the renaissance. After that point, however, the technique all but disappeared until the 18th century. It was reborn in Silesia-Bohmia; however, it wasn’t long before factories in Venice, England and France began manufacturing vast quantities of millefiori canes.

This explains some terminology. Agateware in Britain, millefiore in Italy and nerikomi in Japan. But mosaic is something different.

"Using two clays of contrasting color to throw or handbuild pottery can lead to some very beautiful surfaces. Colored clays can be wedged together to the point at which they are marbled and then thrown on the pottery wheel or handbuilt into various forms. Or they can be stacked and sliced through the cross section to reveal a pattern, which can then be used as an applied, laminated decoration.

These techniques have several different names: in England they are often referred to as “agateware;” in Italy they’re often referred to as “millefiori,” from a decorative glass-forming process meaning “a thousand flowers.” In Japan, the words “neriage,” “nerikomi,” and “zougan” are all used for specific colored clay processes and there is some confusion as to which is which."

http://ceramicartsdaily.org/pottery-making-techniques/wheel-throwing-techniques/you-say-neriage-i-say-nerikomino-matter-what-you-call-it-mixing-colored-clays-makes-for-gorgeous-pottery-surfaces/

And here's how to make nerikomi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGSW2yC2JE0#t=26

And agateware:

[jeroen]

Very interesting to see how they make this pattern. It is not something that can be done quickly. Well it is something special that they take so much trouble to do it with a marble. If you just see how thin the layers of clay are in this marble. Now I can understand that this was not mass production. This could be only one that survived of the few that were made.

I have attached another photo of the marble with nice details of this fine work.

Jeroen

[lstmmrbls]

I would assume many balls were made from the patterned clay, just as many millefiori are made from the master piece. I would assume these are thinner pieces layed on a large ball. I would like to smash it to see how deep the pattern goes into the ball.

[hdesousa]

Very interesting to see how they make this pattern. It is not something that can be done quickly. Well it is something special that they take so much trouble to do it with a marble. If you just see how thin the layers of clay are in this marble. Now I can understand that this was not mass production. This could be only one that survived of the few that were made.

I have attached another photo of the marble with nice details of this fine work.

Jeroen

Jeroen,

Nice pics of an unusual carpet ball.

However, when promoting something for sale, you should not purposely add what is inherently false, lest your credibility becomes suspect. When the buyer finds out what they were told was not true, will you be prepared to issue a refund?

For example, the reference from post #10 (Erickson and Hunter) says: "This so-called surface agate or inlaid agate, although seemingly a laborious method of decoration, was

still practical enough to embellish these inexpensive earthenwares".

If Galen is correct, "still practical enough" means enough of the surface agate vernier could be cut for many balls from one piece of stock. As you can see on this ball, the four main sections are assembled over the surface relatively crudely. It's an attractive design, but doesn't appear to have required any more care than the usual agateware carpet ball.

[jeroen]

Don't worry Hansel, I understand it is better that I am not going to sell a marble from which I do not exactly know what is, to avoid problems. Beside I like it very much, It has a place in my showcase. I am not going to sell it.

And a marble that is partly assembled crudely won't be desirable to most collectors. I know you like non glass marbles, but I think I have to find for you a better made example. (if that ever happens) This one does obvious not meet your high standards. I have seen your photos of many very nice agateware carpet balls, so this one won't add much.

But it is very rare, and I looks nice, although some parts are crudely, and that is important for me. It fits well with my collection stoneware marbles.

But you taught us a lot of this kind of agateware. It is very interesting material.

[hdesousa]

Don't worry Hansel, I understand it is better that I am not going to sell a marble from which I do not exactly know what is, to avoid problems. Beside I like it very much, It has a place in my showcase. I am not going to sell it.

And a marble that is partly assembled crudely won't be desirable to most collectors. I know you like non glass marbles, but I think I have to find for you a better made example. (if that ever happens) This one does obvious not meet your high standards. I have seen your photos of many very nice agateware carpet balls, so this one won't add much.

But it is very rare, and I looks nice, although some parts are crudely, and that is important for me. It fits well with my collection stoneware marbles.

Jeroen,

No need to get sarcastic.

Crudeness in the making of agateware carpet balls is attractive. They were made to be played with, unlike some prized large glass marbles. Your carpet ball is very attractive and has a rare, possibly unique design. Any collector of agateware carpet balls, including me, would be happy to have it in their collection. But you attribute many things to this ball that are simply not true.

I see little difference between what you are doing in promoting this ball and what you say Bernie told you about that large onionskin with mica.

If you have decided to keep it, then that was a very recent decision, because a collector contacted me today, concerned that you were asking no less for this carpet ball than what Bernie asked you for his lady.

Be careful, it's a small world.

[lstmmrbls]

And there is one other thing it is not, and that is a marble.

[jeroen]

But why did you not tell me what it was when I first ask you? You told me in an email: "I agree the unusual marble is a type of mochaware - you can see that better from the side view". Unless agateware is a type of mochaware, but if I understand correctly that you told Bob that agateware is not mochaware. I don't know, this is not my field.

But afterwards you seems to know exactly what it was.Why not telling me in the first place? I am just trying to find out what it is, but it seemed clear to me it is very rare.

The figure I gave your friend was just because i was a little angry after I received your email, and that it seems I am always in a position that when I want a marble I have to tell what I would like to pay, and when I sell a marble I always have to tell what I want for It. Well it seems to work that way, and I have to live with it. But I explained your friend that what I asked was based on nothing, I was just a little upset. And I told him that.

And you describe the technique: "As you can see on this ball, the four main sections are assembled over the surface relatively crudely" I used google translator for the word crudely. I means something like rough, not precise. But now your are saying it is attractive. Am I the only one in the world who don't understand that crudely in this case means that it is attractive? All other collectors know instandly that crude is good? In the context you are using crudely I thought it was not ment as beeing attractive, but unattractive.

And if it is not a marble, what is it? A carpet ball? Was anybody there when it was made back than? Perhaps it had even an other purpose, and was it made just as an object to be put on a nice place. Who knows? I could have been made as a marble back than.

I like it anyway, for now I keep it en enjoy it.

Jeroen