Very Rare Kind Of "mosaic Stoneware" Marble

[jeroen]

Hello,

I tried to find some examples of this kind of technique (surface/inlaid agate) on other types of pottery, but until now the parts shown in the article are the only examples I could find. I could not find a vase, jug, bowl or whatever with this pattern. Perhaps I don't use the right words, but it seems that it is not very common.
Perhaps there is someone who can find an example of old pottery with this technique. I would be interesting to compare.

Jeroen

[godown]

Hi Jeroen

Ive found nothing about this item myself and ive asked some English collectors on another forum and they agree its probably a carpet ball also one of the guys posted on the other page " Quote " The largest carpet bowl collection in the UK, in the York Castle Museum, has examples of these types of 'marbles' and they are called agateware.

Maybe contact the Museum and if they are interested send them the picture

http://www.yorkcastlemuseum.org.uk/Page/Contact.aspx

Craig

[jeroen]

Thanks Craig. I will contact them. I am curious if the have similar examples.

Jeroen

[jeroen]

There are two people from the York Castle Museum who are going to look at my photos. I hope to receive an answer soon. In the book of Paul Baumann there are some photos of this museum, but noting that looks like mine.

I have tried to find any other pottery of this kind, but I still could not find a single example. I also asked two antiquarian pottery dealers in England, but still no success.

To show how detailed it is made, I have attached a large photo of one the circles. In some of the parts, I can count 8 or 9 layers. The layers are almost as thin as a hair!

Jeoen

[lstmmrbls]

Do some study on how the modern clay workers make the millefiora. very neat look but making them, doesn't really seem like a big deal. Make a roll of alternating layers then roll it smaller and smaller. This was one method I found.

[godown]

Hi Jeroen

Good to hear those guys will take a look, Its certainly an interesting piece and most likely a historically important museum piece as well

Im looking forward to hearing what these guys have to say,

Craig C

[hdesousa]

Hi Jeroen

Good to hear those guys will take a look, Its certainly an interesting piece and most likely a historically important museum piece as well

Im looking forward to hearing what these guys have to say,

Craig C

"most likely a historically important museum piece" - wow, I thought Americans liked spin, but seems you've got us beat. (Unless, of course, you know something we don't)

See

http://pr.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Bernays

"One of Bernays' favorite techniques for manipulating public opinion was the indirect use of "third party authorities" to plead for his clients' causes."

[godown]

I will Quote you Hsdesousa

Your carpet ball is very attractive and has a rare, possibly unique design.

And if you consider its age

What other criteria would the museum need

I very much resent you calling me Jeroens pawn ive never had any contact with Jeroen other than what is public viewing on this forum

I will quote you again

The reference I provided above (Erickson and Hunter) does give the date of some similar agateware as 1785, but it also says "...agateware continues to be produced commercially as well as employed in the repertoire of the contemporary studio potter."

Some of your spin to cast doubt on its possible age and originality

You again

(Unless, of course, you know something we don't)

the difference is i have an open mind about this ball and have no vested interest in its monetary value or the players involved

Craig C

[jeroen]

Hi Jeroen

Good to hear those guys will take a look, Its certainly an interesting piece and most likely a historically important museum piece as well

Im looking forward to hearing what these guys have to say,

Craig C

Hi Craig,

As soons as I hear from them I will let you know.

Jeroen

[William Marbles]

.... I'm lost on this thread.

What are we talking about, modern ball's to look like old ball's?

???

[Steph]

Let's stay open-minded in this thread. I eagerly await any new information anyone learns about the orb. I don't want to have to move the thread or parts of it to the SZ.

Have a wonderful day everyone!

[hdesousa]

<snip>

I very much resent you calling me Jeroens pawn ive never had any contact with Jeroen other than what is public viewing on this forum

<snip>

Didn't intend to offend you mate. Thought most Aussies had thick skins, like Crocodile Dundee. Sorry.

Here's more on the "Very Rare Kind of "mosaic Stoneware" Marble" that may explain my last post.

Jeroen recently purchased this carpet bowl (not mosaic and not a marble) from an experienced antique dealer for two to three times what normal looking antique agateware carpet bowls usually sell for.

There's no reason to suspect that that was anything other than a fair price, since this dealer has sold many agateware balls in the past 25 years, as well as toy marble items for many thousands of dollars.

Here's an example (this one's smaller though) of a recent sale on eBay for this type of bowl. Not as fancy, but also quite rare:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-UNUSUAL-LINE-CROCK-TYPE-MARBLE-/330991514882

Ever since he bought his bowl, Jeroen, with virtually no knowledge of the item, has been trying to promote it on the marble boards as something that is extremely old, valuable and difficult to make, attributing qualities to it that are more fictional than real, seemingly for the purpose of selling it for a huge profit to an unsuspecting collector. (He offered it to a friend of mine for $10,000.00)

Admittedly the bowl is rare and very collectable (as I have previously said) but the technique is not difficult nor unique, and the surface veneer sloppily applied (look at other views), which is not a problem as it was made for use as a carpet bowl and not a cabinet piece.

My daughter, who has a degree in fine arts (and thus a more critical eye for 'museum pieces'), did not like the unfinished way the agate veneer was put together. I doubt many would agree with you that this is "most likely a historically important museum piece", but if someone purchased it from Jeroen as such, and then found out they paid many times more than what the next one that shows up sells for, how would you feel?

[William Marbles]

Ah I understand now. Thanks Hdesousa for clearing that up for me.

[jeroen]

Here's an example (this one's smaller though) of a recent sale on eBay for this type of bowl. Not as fancy, but also quite rare:

http://www.ebay.com/...E-/330991514882

Quite rare? What?

You have two big jars with this kind of bowls, so that ebay one is not rare. That one and the same with all your others, is a completely different technique in my opinion.

If mine has such a simple and easy made technique, why are there not more? I could not find any other kind of old pottery in this technique, so that tells me enough of how rare this marble is. And even if there were two, would it make it worthless? How many china scenics are there. They still sell for a lot of money. A good one for $5000-6000? Perhaps my 10 K is a bairgain? ;-)

My daughter, who has a degree in fine arts (and thus a more critical eye for 'museum pieces'), did not like the unfinished way the agate veneer was put together. "One of Bernays favorite techniques for manipulating public opinion was the indirect use of "third party authorities" to plead for his clients' causes."

So by bringing in your daughter…. are you now not use this same “third party authority" technique for your cause? In this case, you to try to make my marble as common and cheap as possible? But it is probably unique and very nice.

Let wait what the people of the museum have to tell.

[mmuehlba]

well I just found this picture on my computer I save , might not be but still very different . Mike

[jeroen]

Hello Mike,

That is a so called Pennsylvania Dutch marble. Very nice one!

Jeroen

[hdesousa]

<snip>

Let wait what the people of the museum have to tell.

Yes, that's a very good idea. Some "third party authorities" may know what they're talking about.

BTW, I've always said your marble is rare and nice. Look at post #23 "very attractive and has a rare, possibly unique design."

But it was put together crudely (which is not a problem for collectors of these things), not as you have implied, a "very difficult technique, and cost a lot of time" Post #1

Let us know when you get a reply from the York Castle Museum experts. Thanks.

[jeroen]

I did no know how the technique worked at post1. But I think it cost a lot more time than the normal agateware/mochaware types. That is more a matter of mixing the clay in a certain pattern if I am correct. That is probably why there are much more of those, than there are of mine.

It is even not certain if this was made as a carpet ball. Perhaps it was made just as some very large handmade glass marbles, just to be nice for display on shelves.

But if the museum has the largest collection in the world they must know something about it.

[Gnome Punter]

It's like finding a penny and wanting a quarter for it

The word rare was used so many times in this thread I now thin that word does not mean what people think it does

[godown]

We like to work on the rabbit principle down here for every Rabbit you see above ground there a few other sleepers under ground

[jeroen]

ANSWER FROM THE MUSEUM

I got an answer from the museum, but there was some confusion about the technique. Dr. M Faye Prior thought my ball had true inlaid agate as a mineral. So I explained what I knew about my ball until now. It could be that Dr. M Faye Prior is not familiar with the ceramic inlaid agateware technique, or he is not the right expert, but he did not tell in his answer that he recognised any ball in their collection that looked the same.

But Dr M Faye Prior is willing to look further into it, but that might take until the summer.

Find his email to me here, and my answer. Did I miss some important things to ask?

Jeroen

====================================

Dear Mr Pater,

Thankyou for your enquiry.

I have recently audited our collection of carpet bowls, and I don't remember seeing anything exactly like the bowl in the photographs.

Generally carpet bowls are ceramic, with a glaze which can vary from a single uniform colour to complex patterns, some of which are similar to your example. If your bowl is inlaid agateware, the surface will be composed of thin slices of agate (a type of silicate rock, not a kind of marble) applied onto the ceramic. Agate is a common mineral, but inlaid agateware is not a common technique. I can't see well enough in the photographs to tell whether yours has a ceramic glaze or inlaid agate.

The History team will not be able to pursue enquiries indepth until late Summer, as we are currently working on a major exhibition, but I would be happy to look into this further for you after the exhibition opens. Please let me know.

Best regards

M

Dr M Faye Prior
Collections Facilitator (History)

==========================================

Dear Dr M Faye Prior,

Thank you for your answer. What I have find out until now is that the marble is made of ceramic, not of the actual mineral agate. But they call this type of ceramic agate, or agateware. It is imitation of the true mineral agate. So I think that is the confusion here, I was not exact enough.

What I know about the technique is that in this case with this ball, that the pattern is made from pieces of preworked clay, and than placed on the surface in a certain pattern. This is called inlaid or surface agateware. After this is got the glazing. My ball has a thick layer of clear glazing. I have attached a larger photo of my ball. The glazing looks the same as on old pottery, like old Delft Blue pottery.

Some information about the inlaid technique can be found here: http://www.michelleericksonceramics.com/pdf/CiA2003_Erickson&Hunter.pdf see figure 11 and 12 (I have attached this pdf also)

And there are some people who still use this technique, as show here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGSW2yC2JE0#t=26

The article shows only two fragments of this kind of pottery. So the technique is known, but pottery seems to be very rare. So I was wondering if my ball in this inlaid technique is perhaps a unique one.

I would like it very much if you can find out ore about my ball after the summer.

With kind regards,

Jeroen Pater

[lstmmrbls]

The one article states sheets of actual agate were used. This is incorrect. Obviously sometimes experts are not.

[godown]

Gee thats disappointing was hoping to learn something about this

Maybe give it a couple months and try them again Jeroen