What Are These Marbles?

[hdesousa]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201333107065

[wediscount2]

Hansel, not sure who made them but they are old vintage marbles. Ronnie

[lstmmrbls]

Other than "Some types I like" I wish I knew!! Been wondering about and studying them for quite some time. Very little luck at all other than there seem to be several varieties.

[metalshelf]

Hi Hansel: I find a lot of these in Canada. When I sell them, I list them as the more common variety of "so called" Vintage Canadian Transitional Swirl Marbles. Not sure if this is correct, however, no conclusive evidence to the contrary. The more collectible types are the 2 color swirls with colored base glass, as you know. At one time, a number of years ago, they were thought to have been made by the Christensen Agate Company, primarily because of the distincive "9" and "Tail". Collectors today seem to gravitate toward the Canadian Type Transitional Swirl, in large part, because of research done by Roger Browse. For what it's worth.......................................Bob.

[winnie]

The marbles which I'm very familiar.

The marbles which I played with as a child.

The marbles which I still love.

The marbles which I still find a lot of here in Holland.

And what do you think they are Hansel?

[hdesousa]

I agree with Bob (Metalshelf), that these marbles are similar in construction to the "Canadian marbles".

I asked Roger Browse about similar 'Canadian" pontil marbles.

He describes them as

"“canadian”: [crease] long thin cutoff with only tiny amounts of spidering along the line. Sometimes cutoff is very faint, some even completely smoothed over. Smooth striping that looks a lot like MFC. Sharp back-and-forth action on the tail emerging from the cutoff. Basic colours + transparent yellow, transparent red + opaque yellow on white + enormous variation of 2-colour. sizes 9/16”, 11/16”, 7/8”."

and says this about them:

"They are largely found in Canada, and for the basic colours, quite easy to find. It is well known that the area of Ontario north of Ohio had several German immigrant glass working communities. The schools were in German etc. Kitchener was Berlin before the 1st world war. I have contacted the people who have dug the glasswork sites in Ontario and eastern Manitoba, and I have been told there was no sign of marbles. I suspect that a cottage industry was set up during the times that the glassworks were being rebuilt after fires, which happened several times at these sites. If you could see a map with a push pin at each location where I have found “crease-pontils”, the concentration in that area north of Ohio would be obvious."

I have asked several Canadian marble collectors who live in South Western Ontario, and none know of any glass factory that made marbles. So it's doubtful they were made in Canada.

One thing that could be done is to look for documentation in toy catalogs, newspapers and government archives to see if/when and from where Canadian marbles were imported.

Winnie, I think the marbles you played with are the ones you mention and pictured here, in post #7 and #12?

http://marbleconnection.com/topic/18714-odd-akros/

They are different from the ones pictured in the first post.

This is what Roger Browse says about your European marbles:

"“european”: straight indented cutoff, often with teardrop-like crease towards the ends. One variation is when the cutoff is very short it is called a “pin-pontil”. Early on the lines are shorter, later they become fairly long. Some were not smoothed over properly, and appear as “regular” pontils. Sometimes the line can be seen within the “regular” pontil. I have 3 of the 100 count boxes with “line pontils” and the occasional “pin”, and the occasional “regular” pontil in the same row. Always quality glass, but becoming more sloppy construction toward the end. smooth striping. Tail emerges circularly from the cutoff ( like a scythe), and tail will often interact with the cutoff, as if drawn in (other types do not interact). Basic colours + oddball transparents (magenta, yellow, clear, slate). sizes 9/16”, 11/16”, then inconsistent up to 1.5”."

And so as not to confuse them with Japanese marbles, this is how Roger describes the Japanese marbles:

“japanese”: [pinch] curved spidery cutoff, usually low quality glass, wobbly striping, little or no tail emerging at the cutoff. Basic colours (aqua, green, blue, amber, purple, red/white) + opaques on white (blue, green, aqua, yellow). sizes 9/16” (not many opaque), 11/16”, 15/16” (only opaque ones), 1.125”."

But adding to the confusion, these "Japanese" marbles are sometimes found in the same box with "European" marbles.

This is what Roger says:

"The Japanese ones, and the later European ones appear to have been marketed out of the UK, by companies like CODEG, etc. The earlier European (more likely to be “pin” or “regular”) may have come out of Germany. At some point apparently a couple of immigrants from Eastern Europe (Germany?) constructed marble making equipment in the Netherlands (Veligglas). I suspect the productions in the Netherlands and in Japan were largely an outsource operation. Many of the boxes with pinch-pontils are marked “made in japan”. The “line-pontils” are most common on solitaire boards (red box), but sometimes they are pinch, but never mixed. My 100 boxes have 4 colours of transparent “line-pontil”, and 1 colour of (slightly smaller) “pinch-pontils”, and I have seen 3 others like that too. I have seen a few instances of a box of 1.125” transparent “pinch-pontils” with one early 1.125” opaque imperial! The “canadian” “crease pontils” appear to be independent of the UK connection."

All somewhat confusing and perhaps tainted with conjecture, but there's no reason we can't get to the bottom of it.

[winnie]

Hansel,the way Roger describes the cut-offs of the "Canedian"transitionals are similar of the transitionals that I find here in Holland.

Indeed some of the smooth striping of the transparant slags looks a lot like MFC.

Here are pictures of 2 slags I find here with smooth cut-offs.

The marbles you posted in your first post are similar to some of the transitionals that I find here,here's a pic- of a variety that I found here,if you look at the right side,you hopefully see what I mean.

At this point I don't think Veiligglas has anything to do with these transitionals,after all,Veiligglas has made marbles from 1949 until 1961.I really think the marbles we are talking about are older than that.

It's indeed confusing and hopefully,one day we will find out more.

[hdesousa]

The marbles you posted in your first post are similar to some of the transitionals that I find here,here's a pic- of a variety that I found here,if you look at the right side,you hopefully see what I mean.

Winnie, that is good information. Perhaps the "Canadian type" marbles were made in Europe. For some reason, some of the later hand-made German glass marbles are found in Canada and not so much in the USA, such as large Lutz's. Perhaps these "Canadian" marbles took the same route to Canada.

So now it's your job to find out where in Europe they were made. :-)

[I'llhavethat1]

The part that stands out to me is a higher percentage of the red & white combo. If these fall into the 'slag' category- wasn't it once said that red slags were less common, comparatively speaking? Compared to purple, amber, blue, green, etc?

So, the branch in the road could dictate that the red & white combo were made in a place that red glass was more available, or a time where red glass was more available.

Plus, the quality of the red & white combo's seem to be a bit higher. That's my opinion

[hdesousa]

This from George Hoy, a collector in Western Ontario, where many of these marbles are found:

"The one on the left is MFC, the middle two are?, the one on the right is a brick. They are all made by the exact same process with the same 9 figuring and same pontil."

[I'llhavethat1]

9 and tail pattern? Check. Possibility that 9 and tail pattern marbles were made somewhere other than USA? Check. Could be Europe, Canada, or Japan? Unknown at this time.

Similar glass/construction quality? maybe (appear so in pics). Two of the marbles in the middle are a bit different? Check. Origin can be directly determined by cutline or pontil? Unknown at this time.

Era? Unknown at this time

How about known sizes? If hand gathered marbles were rounded by machine, manufacturer (A) needed a larger set of rollers to make the larger marbles. Manufacturer B may (or may not) have had the same capability. Which manufacturers from the estimated era had the rollers to make a marble in the larger sizes in the combination most commonly found?

That's the process of elimination I'd run through anyway.

Other things to consider is where they pop up. From what I've heard/seen they show up a lot more in Canada or Europe. Not to say they aren't common in other places. Could be lower production or tariffs. Anyhow, those are my thoughts