What Causes Orange Peel?

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mike,

That is awesome!

Thank you for digging in and sharing this information!

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[migbar]

You are most very welcome, John,

Also, it gives me an excuse to post an illustrative photo...

I think this shows the dried soda ash on the rollers (It's good to see Al again, on the machine here...)

this is how the big boys make marbles...

[lstmmrbls]

I should have said I have seen orange peel texture on glass that the side showing the orange peel was not touching anything, but in my time away I will do some research as I kind of remember oil or steam possibly having something to do with it. IT seems hitting that 60 mark messed up a lot of synapses

My favorite glass is glue chip and the process to make it is the bomb(LOL) and almost anyone can do it, glass is incredible stuff

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mike,

Great photos!!

I have many questions, but will refrain.

Thank you, again!!

To All:

No one posted a photo of a Wheaton marble.

So, I went looking in my boxes-o-stuff.

Here is a "marble wanna-be" with orange peel:

This rough surface ("orange peel") is simply from a soft, plastic glass gob touching the rough surface of the rollers.

Not from: the glass is too cold, the glass is too hot, the rollers are too cold, the rollers are too hot, the glass shrunk or the glass was blah, blah, blah....

It was run across these rollers.

True, the rollers where "cleaned up" quite a bit, but in the end, the surface was still pock-marked and rough.

My understanding is that Scott put quite a bit of elbow grease and sweat into making that lady presentable.

Ideally, one would have to re-machine the surface down to remove the surface defects.

Very expensive.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[lstmmrbls]

Neat looks just like the Alox orange peel and nothing like the Vacor IMO

[Shamrock Marbles]

Galen:

Neat looks just like the Alox orange peel and nothing like the Vacor IMO

Yes, Galen. I would agree with your opinion.

The orange peel that you see on the Wheaton Village "marble" is more like that on the ALOX run.

If you read my posts, the last sentence of Post #48:

You did open my eyes to the Vacor orange peel as a variant of orange peel.

I will get to the Vacor variant, but first the ALOX...

First, I want to apologize to whoever I downloaded these pictures from.

If I were to guess, they may be Ron Shepard's.

Here is a "raw" ALOX machine:

Rusted and pitted augers.

Here is a "close-up" of the ALOX machine in action:

Here are some "marbles" made on the ALOX machine:

Notice the orange peel surfaces?

Now looking at the surface differences between the first two photos, it appears that the augers were cleaned up.

Looking at the lack of rust even at the shaft, I speculate that the augers were media blasted.

Maybe someone can comment on "if" or "how" the augers were cleaned before testing?

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[winnie]

There are Euro sparklers with the same orange peel as showed in page #54

[Shamrock Marbles]

To All:

Here is a link to a YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOiTwnadb5A

I think this machine was resurrected and produced marbles this year.

Some of these marbles are on eBay, but I'm not sure which auction listings.

Any factual information would be helpful.

Would like to see the auger surface now and a close-up of the marble surfaces.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mon]

I have had many 1" plus european sparklers and I can't remember seeing any without a certain level orange peel. Also, I have had many of the smaller 5/8" plus without a trace of OP. If it was a temperature thing of rollers vs glass, why would it be so consistent? Were the 1" er's made in short runs.....short enough that the rollers never made it to a temp to alleviate OP? If it's a roller condition issue....did most companies rework them after sitting idle? Why is the it the larger marblest have OP more often?

Maybe I'll just punt..............................................from Cairo Novelty.

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon:

I have had many 1" plus european sparklers and I can't remember seeing any without a certain level orange peel. Also, I have had many of the smaller 5/8" plus without a trace of OP. If it was a temperature thing of rollers vs glass, why would it be so consistent? Were the 1" er's made in short runs.....short enough that the rollers never made it to a temp to alleviate OP? If it's a roller condition issue....did most companies rework them after sitting idle? Why is the it the larger marblest have OP more often?

I tried to lay out some reasoning in my response to Bumblbee back in Post #15.

Here is an excerpt:

Just a guess but probably 90% of all marbles run are 5/8" with the remaining 10% of smaller and larger marbles (of which shooter 3/4" are included).

Large marbles (say over 3/4") are infrequently run, because they are expensive to produce and the demand wasn't there.

This meant that marble rounding machines for large spheres where mostly idle throughout the year.

Here are photos of idle machines:

Unknown location and sizes.

Peltier Pee-Wee Machine in unknown location.

(Mike, thanks for your photo in the PeeWee thread.)

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mon]

Thanks John....

But......I would imagine the PeeWee machine(s) sat just as much, if not more, than a 3/4" plus machine(s). Can't recall any of my PeeWee's with OP. Without knowing jack sh*t, I always thought OP was do to poor glass cause it seems to be more prevalent in foreign marbles with the exception of the jolly roger's you had pointed out.

[Shamrock Marbles]

Winnie:

There are Euro sparklers with the same orange peel as showed in page #54

You bring up an interesting point.

Clear or transparent glass really highlights the rough surface.

The light reflects and diffracts.

Light coming through the other side of the marble helps seeing the surface distortion.

On an opaque marble, you need to get the right angle for the reflection to see orange peel.

The transparent versus opaque glass is something I'll bring up in my Vacor discussion.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Steph]

Maybe I'll just punt..............................................from Cairo Novelty.

!!!!!!!

kewlness

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon,

But......I would imagine the PeeWee machine(s) sat just as much, if not more, than a 3/4" plus machine(s). Can't recall any of my PeeWee's with OP. Without knowing jack sh*t, I always thought OP was do to poor glass cause it seems to be more prevalent in foreign marbles with the exception of the jolly roger's you had pointed out.

Yes, agreed. PeeWee machines would sit as much.

Here is the Peltier PeeWee Machine sitting idle.

Look at the rust on the augers.

She has seen better days.

Wonder what marbles would look like coming off her now.

Again, back in Post #15 I stated:

However, the weight of a large marble does force the glass against the roller surface more than a smaller volume/weight gob.

Larger marble=heavier weight=deeper impression.

Smaller marble=lighter weight=lighter impression.

A PeeWee (0.499" diameter) marble is 1/8th (0.125x) the mass of a 1.000" diameter marble.

[Another way to look at it is: A 1" marble weighs 8-times more than a PeeWee marble.]

Hence, the surface of a PeeWee will see 1/8th the force from gravity as it is pushed against the rollers.

Marble mass increases as a cube of the diameter (Mass = Density * Volume = Density * ((3.14159/6)*(Diameter^3)).

Double the diameter of a marble and it's volume, mass, thermal energy is 8x greater (2^3=8).

But there is are other factors helping the PeeWee:

1) It's smaller size is impacted more from surface tension. The surface tension is trying to pull the mass into a sphere.

Like a small bead of water on a leaf. The smaller, the rounder. Increase the mass of the droplet and it flattens.

2) The smaller mass of the PeeWee has less thermal mass and cools much quicker (again 1/8th as much as a 1"). There is a lesser chance of surface shifting.

Man, these suckers set quickly!

3) It's surface is smaller and your old eyes can't see those imperfections as easily!

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

To All:

Here are some videos showing surface tension of water in zero g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTqLQO3L4Ko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntQ7qGilqZE

Notice how a small water droplet reacts when separated from the larger mass.

It almost instantaneously forms into a sphere, while the large mass flails about.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mon]

Sorry for making you repeat yourself and I understand........pretty cool video and not what I expected! I don't have a surface gage but wonder how much surface deviation in some of the euro's or jolly's?

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

It was the gravity Mon,,,,must have been a full moon or something,,,,---LMAO!

[Shamrock Marbles]

To All:

On Friday, I had the chance to visit Moon Marble.

I did this for two reasons.

1) Locate samples of Shamrock Marbles made on a newly sandblasted forming surface and left there for their archives.

2) Look at a huge assortment of Vacor marbles.

After a short search, I came across three clear samples that matched up with my "Guinea" Lemon.

Here they are:

Notice:

1) The severe orange peel (or lemon peel).

2) The chevron (ram's head) twist.

3) The "copper" tint to the marble in the upper right.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

To All:

I consider the severity and orange peel pattern on the Vacor to be unique.

Definitely something you don't see on vintage machine made marbles (the closest that approaches to this are certain samples of AKRO Jolly Rogers).

The Vacor orange peel is easily seen on their Jumbo marbles (1-3/8"), but also on some of their smaller marbles (1" included), but not as severe.

On Friday afternoon, I went browsing at Moon Marble.

As I looked through similar sized bins, I noticed that the transparent marbles were smoother (no orange peel) than certain opaque marbles (some opaque marbles were smooth).

In other words, not all Vacors exhibit this orange peel.

Why some and not others?

When I got to the end of the row, I found something that struck me.

I found a bin full of beautiful Vacor Snow Leopards.

Why did it hit me?

When you sprinkle cold shards of glass into the marble machine, those little bits-o-glass tear up the auger surface.

Run enough of this and you'll impact the surface of the augers like the surface of the moon.

This result is similar to media blasting the surface.

(Different media and application settings will give different surface textures.)

Some of those chunks are 3/32" and just sharp edges.

So, after you are done with a run of Snow Leopards and your augers are beat, what do you run next?

Transparent red? No way! They would look like heck. Any transparent would.

Run an opaque color until the tooling smooth's out, then transition into something that won't highlight the surface imperfections.

You might want to iridize or acid etch the surfaces to soften or mask the rough surface.

Vacor runs frit on most of their size ranges.

I wouldn't think that Vacor would have dedicated frit machines, because the wear and tear would too much on a single machine.

It sure would be interesting to know.

Back in the Summer of 2006, I ran some frit through the large tooling of my first machine (at Sauder Village).

A clear gob was gathered and dropped into the rollers.

Small, multi-colored frit was dropped into the machine.

The grinding and chattering of the machine was most evident.

Tore the heck out of the surface to the point I had to sand it smooth.

Not on my list to do anytime soon.

(This was my attempt at making a Vitro "confetti" marble.)

I need to find my samples of those.

So, back to my theory...

The Vacor orange peel is from rough augers.

Larger marbles shift more, thus creating elongated valleys.

The augers are rough because they have been media blasted sprinkled and ground with large, sharp, hard glass frit.

Just some food for thought.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Steph]

Yes, food for thought for sure

[Shamrock Marbles]

Steph:

Yes, food for thought.

Have you been checking my math?

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Steph]

No, I haven't been checking any math.

[mon]

I'm sure glad you not investigating who stoled two bars of turkish taffy from the Kipton general store in 1967.........ok, it was me! lol mon

[Shamrock Marbles]

Galen:

I should have said I have seen orange peel texture on glass that the side showing the orange peel was not touching anything, but in my time away I will do some research as I kind of remember oil or steam possibly having something to do with it. IT seems hitting that 60 mark messed up a lot of synapses

Thanks for clarifying.

Let me try to clarify some things myself.

Glass cools and can develop waviness (or some would call chill marks).

This is most evident on irregular shaped items.

Take a gob of glass and drop it onto a steel marver.

Let it sit until it cools enough to handle and place in an annealer.

When you pull out the cooled mass, the top will be domed, the edges rounded, but the bottom will have concentric rings/waves/chill marks.

The transfer of heat on the bottom is greater to the cool marver (conduction) than the top in contact with the surrounding air (convection).

Heat loss through radiation is negligible.

Take a gob of glass on the end of a punty.

Flatten four sides on the marver and the end opposite the punty.

You will notice again a waviness form on the surface.

The corners will cool quickest (smallest cross-sectional distance).

Followed by the edges and then the center.

Notice the pattern that forms on the panel surfaces?

Concentric circles or ovals.

But what makes a marble very special is that it is what it is -- a sphere.

The distance from the center to any surface is equal. (All radii are equal.)

The distance from any point on the surface back to itself is equal. (All circumferences are equal.)

It is the only shape that gives the greatest volume with the smallest surface area. (Perfection.)

Because of this physical trait, the marble can withstand quite a bit of cooling before failure.

Not something you can get away with on a glass goblet where the cross section of the glass changes drastically from the lip, through the body, the stem and then to the foot.

Think how long the first marble sits in a bottom of a collection bucket before that bucket is placed in the lehr for annealing?

Marbles are pretty darn durable.

So, as a marble cools on the surface as it is being "spun", it contracts uniformly.

The surface tension of the glass surface increases and places the molten core under pressure.

There is a point where the surface cools and the hot interior no longer has enough energy to reheat the surface.

It is this point when one can safely place in an annealer. (Learned the hard way.)

If you look at marble halves, many of them have a small bubble where the stresses propagated to the surface. (Cracked from the inside out.)

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[lstmmrbls]

I doubt very much Vacor allows any of their rollers to get rusty and pitted, and not so sure any of the largest types are made with chips. JMHO. And those wiggly wavy wet finger type wrinkles are not from dings dents pits or other roller defects IMVNHO, just look at their shape.

I toured a glass factory in W.V. many years ago. They took their still hot hand blown pieces and plunged them into water . It was really neat. The results were neat too.