Steph

Another mystery marble reference. These might be interesting because they were expensive! A kid might have to pay a nickel for them! The year was 1892. This is from a Butler Brothers catalog with wholesale prices. 1000 "Common Marbles" sold for 42 cents. 1000 "Common Painted" sold for 48. So those were the clays. Those prices work out to a little more than 20 for a penny for the dealer. So a boy might be able to get 10 for a penny. Then there were the "Painted China Alleys". The "large size", which they also called No. 4, were 29 cents for 100. Then the "Fancy Glass Marbles." The large size was 60 cents for 100. And now the Spangles. "Large size, solid glass, spangled; beautiful ornaments or playthings; retail like hot cakes at 5 cents" The dealer would get one dozen in a wooden box for 33 cents. Or he could get a box of Extra Large Spangles, "big as a hen's egg", for 75 cents. Those must have cost the customer at least a dime! Are we talking about mica now?

The reality is that the names do matter a lot on the internet. When you're at a show you see a marble in hand, so naturally you don't need to rely on a name in the same way. You don't need keywords when you're standing in front of a case of marbles. The name game is a reality on eBay. A major force in the market. We need to be able to negotiate it safely, and honestly. Not overdoing it, but not depriving ourselves of the advantages of doing it right. I'm beginning to appreciate the pressure Alan might feel over the superboy name in general. Whatever definitions are used, sellers have to be smart about using them. Need the right keywords. Need to be confident. I still don't know exactly what I would call a superboy if I ever had one to sell. I'm still looking for my first superman to call my own! And I don't care about the blending for that. Might even prefer not to have the orange. Naw ... I'll take it either way. lol In my own collection I think I'll always call it a superman not matter how much blending there is. But it's neat to finally have a clue about the different things other people are focussing on when they use the superboy name. Thought about something funny today. Christensens are not free of the name game. They're the ultimate in the name game. Why are they called Christensens? To take advantage of the fame of the M. F. Christensen name, right? And if it helped them get a foothold in the marketplace, so that they could get their wonderful marbles out where people could see them, yea for their smart marketing! I love all the hype in the old ads too. I don't mind how it sometimes misleads. It's charming. And very very human. .

Roger, that's cool. I've honestly never come close to sorting out superboys before. I've been afraid to try. I've looked at those threads and thought, "maybe later". There was so much passion and I wasn't close to seeing what the issues were. So, I closed the door and tiptoed away. As you know it takes a lot to make me tiptoe away from a subject, but superboys have had the power to make me do it. Now that you gave me a clear idea to get my mind around, I felt a little better prepared and went back and reread what was said in the last superboy showdown. I still haven't reread the whole thread but I got as far as what Mary M said purists would say about superboys. It's different from your version. This would be a point where the discussion could get interesting, or could get dangerous when people get passionate, or could get very chaotic if people aren't careful. Wouldn't it be sweet if we could stick to interesting? And have people who believe in superboys say which version of the superboy they have adopted. Things like that. So, here's where I see you: If it started out to be a superman, it's still a superman as long as it has three colors. blue, red and orange means still a superman. Then if I have read her post correctly, the version Mary attributed to the purists was that it had to have the correct three colors to be a superman. Had to have blue, red and yellow. If it didn't have clear (edit: distinct, "true") yellow, it wasn't a man anymore. It became a boy. Have I stated these versions of the name correctly? Where do other variations fall? Like what if it's blue, yellow and orange? Is that a superman for you Roger? Would that be a superboy to the people Mary described? What if it has blue, red, yellow and orange? Superman easily for you. Would that be a superboy to some?

Patent #1828226 METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR FEEDING GLASS CHARGES OF DIFFERENT COLORS, patented Oct. 20, 1931 (filed Oct. 15, 1927) http://www.google.com/patents?id=rvBDAAAAEBAJ&dq=1828226 Awarded to Everett O. Hiller, of Hartford, Connecticut, assignor to Hartford-Empire Company, of Hartford, Connecticut, a corporation of Delaware Opening text: .

Made in Japan for sale in South America: From the auction description: (source)

Been talking to someone ... (hi Someone!) ... and we tossed around some theories about why some marbles are hard to get a definition for ... Marbles where if you post to ask a question about them, the thread is pretty much guaranteed to jump into the same discussion which happened the last time a question was asked about them a few months earlier. Never moving ahead. And leaving the person who posted the question feeling a bit shaken. So this is a thread to bravely discuss some of those marble types ... and try to get to the reasons for why particular types seem to cause friction. There could be different reasons for different marbles. For example, the ringer. The other day Bo asked a very carefully phrased question about them to get past the usual issues ... and you could hear the echoes. And then there's the superboy. A common difficulty seems to be that some people don't want a name used at all. They may object to a specific name, or they may be fighting a general tide toward creating new names. While others are ready to say, "this name is in use, so what does it mean to the people who use it?" Then the too-easy answer is likely to be, "It means money!" Sure, it does. But that's not an inherently bad thing. Hype and name recognition are part of the market. MFC, CAC and Akro all did it most deliciously (and somewhat humorously). If they weren't successful at it, would we be talking about marbles now? So, accepting that a name is used, for whatever reason, and accepting that some people will object ... what's does the name mean to the well-meaning people who use it? Is there some ideal example of it? What is a meaningful range of variation for it? Another problem occurs when a name is used in more than one way. For example, chocolate oxblood. Some are adamant that it should only be used for one particular marble type, but I've seen two distinct usages over the several years I've been watching it. An older example in that category is moon or moonie. It's been used in many ways over the years. One more example which often starts long discussions is Joseph's coat.

Master was a term of address for boys, so we can guess that young Earl was probably under 13 when he received that fascinating box!

Every now and then board settings have been known to spontaneously change. Sounds like you have an Options issue. Last time it was reported was last August. Check this out: Help

LOL Guess what Joe! I gave my copy of that particular Block book away, but Fisherman has taken a pic of that page! (from a tornado core transitional auction he just posted a link to )

Not a problem. I hoped that's all it was. I need to have faith that my eyes will still be able to read magazine print in 20 years, so I trusted there was an answer!

Here's the KC club's catalog page: New Marble ID Note it says "Chinese Marbles - coming soon". Something to keep an eye out for! On the "House of Marbles - 2005 Catalog" page, they show the Teign Valley marbles at the bottom and the Chinese handmades at the top. This is a clipping from the Chinese page. Maybe yours are less picture perfect versions of these????

That's neat you live so close!!! I hope you do make it. I don't think they make the cheap ones. Especially now that you confirm the location of Teign Valley. I'm pretty sure the cheap ones are Asian. Or I'll say most of the cheap ones are Asian. Vacor de Mexico sold the Atmospheres a few years back. Those were handmade. I'm guessing they were made in Mexico ... but you know, I don't really know that. One more thing to check on. The Kansas City Marble Club has some catalogs listing the ones I think are Chinese handmades. Let me go get the link for their catalog pages. Be right back!

Interesting thought! One reason I'd guess something other than 1950's experiments is that it said "first cheap glass marbles made" (emphasis added), and elsewhere it talks about cheap glass being used during the war. More speculation! LOL (especially speculative since I've taken the liberty of interpreting the WWI reference as WWII! LOL) Now that you mention it, it does seem like this whole article could have been part of an advanced marketing campaign by Peltier and Pink trying to gin up some interest about marbles in general and maybe stir up some buy-American patriotic fervor. I'm under the impression that they were not too adversarial as competitors go. Like possibly even friends? Did some trading of stock back and forth.

Ziggy, I wouldn't necessarily guess Czech on yours. There are modern handmades being sold by the House of Marbles of England, among others. Some are very inexpensive. Some a little pricier I think. I think China is one of the main sources for less expensive ones. For the others, the name Teign Valley comes to mind but I don't know where those are made ... is it some place called Teign Valley? (LOL) I'll go do some checking on those to get my facts straight. (edit: here are some Teign Valley examples if you'd like to see them, at the HOM website) Here are some Czech corks from the collection of the late Norm Brown:

Lavender? ... That is a very interesting observation about lavender. I recommend asking about it in the main chat area. Deserves lots of eyes looking at. imho I don't have many whities or blackies! Of the lavender cats I currently own, all are 4-vane. Al has hundreds (thousands?) of bags though. Maybe he could check some of his Gladding bags for lavender. There are some folks who go out of their way to collect cats too. Maybe they could help. Vaseline Vitros? ... Another interesting observation. Your Vienna Vitros (such as helmets) and early conquerors having uranium glass ... that's reasonable. Your blackies and whities and tiger eyes not having it also sounds reasonable. This is from a vaseline glass collectors site, vaselineglass.org: I've sold a lot of vaseline glass mibs, and some of them have been cage style cats. I think some of them may have been chubby vaned Vitro cats, but I can't be sure about that. Of all the vaseline glass cats I have left, only one appears to be Vitro. It's a cage-type cat, and not a hybrid, or only barely so. It's one of the type which has such fluttery vanes that they are hard to count. Easy to believe it is 1960's or later. (Note: I only say "appears to be Vitro" because I've seen this fluttery vane type questioned before.) Yup, it sure would be!!!

Parrots ... Your hunch seems to be good. Vitro book says, "Marble types related to the Tiger-Eye line are four color Parrots and three color Parakeets." That's all I've seen on this in the book so far. I don't know if that means they were made concurrently or if they are more like descendants. The first person I'd ask for extra info on the dates of parrots would be Ron Shepherd. Some of the best info we have online about the parrots are anecdotes he tells about his friend Blain Lemon who started working at Vitro in the 40's and was plant manager there from 1962 - 1967. Phantoms ... A collectors' name for a type of conqueror, is all I know. I'm pretty sure the company didn't distinguish between them. If I'm reading correctly, both the regular and phantom types were found in the mesh bags. I don't know when they were most prevalent. LOL ... you can see now how much help I'm going to be! I'm just learning. I love a good question to give me something to read more about. Well, carrying on .... All-Reds ... I believe the blackline all-reds were the ones which were introduced in 1959. I don't know what the 1930's or 1940's tri-lite version looked like. But check on p. 178 of AMMM, to get a glimpse. Whities and Blackies ... When Whities and Blackies were introduced, I cannot tell (don't see it in the Vitro book, haven't yet read most of the AMMM section on Vitro). But they were being sold in 1954 or later, because they can be seen in an advertisement with Cat's eyes. [edit: I need to pull the Vitro book out again. I might have been looking at a 1957 ad. I need to check to see if it's the same one as the 1957 ad I posted later in this thread.] Funny, I just noticed that those are the "reverse blackies" in that ad. (p. 42 of the Vitro book) I don't know how the reverse blackies compare timewise to the "regular" blackies. I'm seeing lots of header examples in the Vitro book, which might someday help me figure out the dates on the marbles ... once I learn more about which headers are older or newer. This is long enough. I'll say what little I know about the rest in the next post. And then I think I'll send out an SOS to Ron about the parrot dates.

1955 again. a pivotal date. the industry was shaken but trying to regroup. There was enough hope that the article could end on a note of bravado: That still leaves the mystery of the earlier cat's eyes dangling. Whoever made them, by 1955 when the new kind of cat's eyes were coming out, the old kind had been around long enough for them to be given up on ... "not favored by mibsters". That cat eye row also reminded me of contemps. That'd be another interesting question. When did the contemp era begin?

(click pix to enlarge) January 1934 Ad for "the new Akro Carnelian": Some carnelians while I'm at it. (source) Pix in different lighting, could be helpful. (source)

So do you think these are American? They remind me a little Czech corks but I trust the author wouldn't have pulled the scrap glass idea out of thin air. And what year DID Peltier and Marble King come out with their own lines of what we recognize as cat's eyes? I just read in the Vitro book that theirs were introduced in Sept. 1954.

Reading the Marble Museum's Vitro book I'm seeing some dates which might be helpful to have in a ready reference format. So here goes. I may update it as I find out more. *** The Vitro-Agate Company, 1932 - 1969 *** Vienna, WV -- 1932 (mailing address was in Parkersburg even while the plant was in Vienna) 1930's: Clear-Lite Du-Lite Tri-Lite The original All-Reds were Tri-Lites. Packaged in mesh bags, and in cartons. Bags were labelled Shooters, Spinners, Buddies, Sunny Boy and Seniors. There is also a bag labelled Pee-Wees from that era. Collectors names for different varieties of Tri-Lite include: Helmet, Elite, Superior, Aquamarine, Buttermilk, ... (to be continued?) In the 1940's, during WWII, the following were introduced. Conquerors Victory Agates Parkersburg, WV -- 1945 1951: Tiger-Eyes were introduced 1952: Aqua Jewels, said to be Vitro's "most successful line of marbles". Described by Henry Fisher in 1967 as "hotter'n heck, has been for many years". First made in Gold, Crystal, Blue, Green and Azure. Ruby would come later, in 1958. It wasn't initially considered practical because of the high price and general shortage of selenium. It is noted that Clearies were previously sold under the names Tri-Clear and Marine Gems. The name Marine Gems was trademarked by Vitro in 1941. 1954: Cat's eyes were introduced 1957: Do not know yet when they were introduced. However, Blackies and Whities were available for sale in this year. 1958: The Ruby Red clearie was introduced. 1958 or later: The "fingers" marbles were made after the Ruby Red clearie, and they were the precursor of the caged style cat's eye. 1959: The more familiar All-Red was introduced. First the "black line" all-reds. I don't yet know how long it was before the black line was dropped. 1964: Yellow Jackets were introduced. (Thanks to George Sourlis for this updated information.) 1965: Blackies and Yellow Jackets were still being advertised. (Thanks to Al for this information.) *** Acquired by Gladding-Kalamazoo Sled and Toy, Inc., a WV corporation, 1969 *** *** Name changed to Gladding-Vitro Agate Company *** Owner of record is Gladding, a NY company, 1971 1981: Manager is John Masters *** Acquired by Paris Manufacturing Corporation of South Paris, Maine, 1982 to 1985, or to 1987? *** *** Name changed back to Vitro Agate *** *** Purchased by the Viking Rope Company, 1987 to 1988 *** *** Plant relocated to Anacortes, WA, home of Viking Rope, 1989 *** *** Purchased by Jabo, Inc., 1992 to 1993 *** *** Machines and old stock moved to the Ohio River, 1993 *** (plant is in Reno, OH, mailing address is or has been in Parkersburg, WV) Sounds like Jabo might not have purchased Vitro's old stock after all. See comments below. Not sure at this time where I heard that they had. Primary source: The Vitro-Agate Company, The Marble Museum's Guide to the Glass-Agate Company, 2005, by Chris Cooper and Michael Johnson Additional information from: American Machine-Made Marbles, 2006, by Dean Six, Susie Metzler, and Michael Johnson

LOL @ the television mention in the headline. I bet if the article had been written in 1965, they wouldn't have sounded as optimistic that mibs would survive TV. Yup, miggles popping up everywhere! LOL True, the descriptions on the left don't seem to match up exactly with the marbles in the rows. And I imagine that some people would disagree with some of the claims. Like the row labeled peppermint stripes being "semi-mechanically made"? And those onionskins/Joe's coats in the 3rd row being American made ... and the clays being preferred to those? There are some issues there. But as you say this is a 1955 perspective. The average man on the street would have known a lot about marbles, at least the ones he played with. The author or illustrator were definitely giving us insight into the names which were used back then. They might not know how Germans made marbles 75 years earlier, but they would know recognize a lot of marble types on sight, whatever name they used in that period. And these marbles are from the collections of Berry Pink and Sellers Peltier?!! Before they started making cat's eyes themselves? Yeah ... if either of them called an auger-y marble a cat's eye in 1955 ... I find that very interesting. They're calling them scrap glass marbles. And then near the bottom there are some more scrap glass marbles? I think the WWI statement is simply an error. They surely meant WWII, because obviously the writer considered Peltier's marbles and the "moonstones" to be beautiful, and he obviously knew those were made after WWI. I know of companies using scrap glass, but I've only ever heard of it being used for traditional marbles such as WV swirls. This is the first I've I heard of a "cat's eye" version or of marbles such as those on the left of that other row. Hmm, the big marble in that row looks like a marble which was identified as Alox in Amer. Mach.-Made Marbles, and Alox did use scrap glass. This is provocative since Alox marbles are still somewhat of a mystery. What do you think about the name "moonstones"? It sounds like a name used in the 1950's which hasn't survived to the present. And it looks like some of those marbles in that row might be translucent Akro corks. ??? One final LOL @ clearies being called a fad. We recently discussed a highly flawed article which can be found on the net which spoke of clearies as being "prized by collectors". Maybe it was based on info from the 1940's or early 50's.

I want to be completely fair. I don't want to run any risk of telling someone they don't have what they think they have and thus interfering with legitimate sales if I am wrong. I am about as certain as I can be, and I want the facts to be on the record so that anyone who is in doubt can also be clear on the matter. My real question here comes from the fact that these bags contain swirls. AMMM notes this as fantasy packaging but says they contain "recent Marble King". So I simply want to nail down the facts about which variations might be out there. I want to document it. For the good of anyone who might be searching for helpful information on this in the future. Whether or not I contact this particular seller. I want to be fair.

Just want to get this 100% straight, and on the record ... and want confirmation before I contact the seller and tell them they're mistaken about it being vintage. ALL the Alox armed forces packaging is fantasy? Obviously the ones with modern Marble Kings are. Who would you say made the mibs in here? Champion?

Something new starting at Glass Addiction. Who knows how long it will last or where it will go. A thread about making contemporary marbles. Some pre-recorded videos and some live feeds. Marble Videos and Live Feeds - Add Yours HERE!!