MrsMopar Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Who were they? Also, what makes each one different and how can you tell? Thanx and have a great day! :-) Felicia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Who were they? Also, what makes each one different and how can you tell? Thanx and have a great day! :-) Felicia Member Group: "Supporting Member Moderator Posts: 5,984 Joined: 08-November 05 Location:the 44th parallel Gender:Not Telling Posted 04 October 2008 - 05:07 PM West Virginia swirls, aka WV swirls Swirls, usually vintage, made by the following West Virginia companies: •Alley Agate •Cairo Novelty Co. •Champion Agate •Davis Marble Co. •Heaton Agate Co. •Jackson Marble Co. •Playrite Marble and Novelty Co. •Ravenswood Glass and Novelty Co. Alox agates are also usually lumped in with WV swirls, though the Alox Mfg. Co. was located in Missouri. Their swirl machines are said to have been purchased from West Virginia. Bogard has also been reported as making opaque swirls, but this isn't well-known. I don't remember seeing photos of them and I haven't seen them considered in marble i.d.'s. Mid-Atlantic of West Virginia, Inc. might qualify, but their swirls are modern, and aren't usually considered in swirl discussions. Also, people have perhaps jokingly included certain Akros in that category. They weren't primarily a swirl company but were in WV and did make some swirls. Champion still made marbles in the modern era but their roots are vintage. I've also seen someone call Jabos WV swirls. Their mailing address was in WV, so maybe. lol. But the marbles are modern, and were made in Ohio. Christensen Agates were made in Ohio. " The above piece is from Steph's study hall. There seem to be some mistakes.I know of no one who considers Alox a Missouri Company as a West Virginia Swirl. West Virginia swirls were made in West Virginia and that is why they are called West Virginia swirls. JABO has an office in WV and even had a plant in WV. That plant made industrials. All of the JABO Classics were made in Ohio, so most of us consider them to be Ohio marbles. Mid Atlantic was a West Virginia swirl company. Ron Shepherd and I discussed the WV swirl companies yesterday. It is a subject we discuss often and I think you will find we are in agreement on which are and which are not WV Swirl Companies. There are nine. We further agree that these mibs are becomming more collectible all the time as they can be IDed. We believe that much more will be known about how to ID them in the next year or two. How you tell these marbles apart is the $64,000 question. Even some of the experts and they are experts make mistakes on these. Lastly, we are convinced not all of them will ever be IDed because some of these companies used the same glass etc.There is further confusion because of trying to ID these with pictures. The vagaries of the color from the camera multiplied by the different way each person'scomputer shows the colors magnifies this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMopar Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Thank you Steve. Nine is a lot considering they each probably made quite an amount of marbles in their time. I was thinking that maybe there was something in swirl patterns or colors that made it easier to identify the various ones, but seeing that you said something about same glass being used by some, that part would make it harder huh? I'm wondering these things because I think, unless you are an expert or have actually worked at a company and have marbles from that manufacturer or have dug marbles from a site or have obtained any of these from any of the above sources, you could remain clueless like me. I look at a swirl and am dumb-founded. They're kewl and fun to look at but I have no idea how to tell one from another. Even with various ones posted and identified, it just doesn't seem to click in my head. And from what I have seen so far, Alley and Champion seem to be more easily identified and most frequently displayed. Is there something about those 2 that make it easier? Hopefully there will be something that will come out that can be more helpful with these WV Swirls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Alox agates are also usually lumped in with WV swirls, though the Alox Mfg. Co. was located in Missouri. Their swirl machines are said to have been purchased from West Virginia. There seem to be some mistakes.I know of no one who considers Alox a Missouri Company as a West Virginia Swirl. 1) does what you quoted from me say that Alox swirls ARE WV swirls? 2) Aloxes ARE almost always lumped in with WV swirls for purposes of ID. A newbie shows a pile of swirls and the typical ID is along the lines of, "Those are called WV swirls". Even if some Aloxes might be tumbling around in the group. Steve, I know you have been concerned about that Alox entry for some time so let me reassure you. The intent of my wording is to acknowledge an erroneous ID which is generally allowed to slide and give a possible reason why it would be hard to ever correct the error -- machine origin. We go with the numbers. And the numbers for this swirl type say, "most likely from WV" with an implicit p.s. of "and we probably couldn't tell for sure if it wasn't". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Who were they? Also, what makes each one different and how can you tell? Thanx and have a great day! :-) Felicia o0o0o0o Goody one of my favorite topics WV SWIRLS !!! WOOHOOO !! Felicia, the Wv Swirl company's made some marbles that are almost identical and are hard to tell apart especially the more common types, they can be very hard to tell apart even when there not common. Ron Shepard the swirl authority in the marble community will even tell you they can be a bear to tell apart, some things to look for though, is color of course and the glass, then comes patterning. Like for example the flames, Alleys are more defined and fine tipped where as Ravens tend to be more open and wider. Example. Id say glass and color are the foremost things i look at when trying to id them correctly then pattern which kind of falls in between Glass and Color imho, and even then you can get it wrong, they probably are the hardest of all marbles to nail down id's on, maybe that's why i went head first with them, it was and certainly is a challenge, but they are some of the most beautiful marbles made IMHO. The main company's that come to mind for me are.. Alley - Ravenswood - Champion - Cairo - Heaton - Davis - Jackson. Never really got to study any of the other ones. All of the above made some killer mibs, but imho a experienced swirl collector can usually tell by the glass and how it looks, heck sometimes i have no reasoning what so ever why i may think a certain swirl is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Oregon Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 I didn't see Vitro mentioned in there and some of their marbles might also be considerd swirl patterns. I'd say espeically the ones just before they moved to Anacortes but...? Also, for newbies wondering about all of the various West Virginia marbles companies, the ones that are not in the 'swirl' list but are from WV are Marble King, Master Glass and Master Marble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 I didn't see Vitro mentioned in there and some of their marbles might also be considerd swirl patterns. I'd say espeically the ones just before they moved to Anacortes but...? Also, for newbies wondering about all of the various West Virginia marbles companies, the ones that are not in the 'swirl' list but are from WV are Marble King, Master Glass and Master Marble. Interesting theory Al, but ive never considered any Vitro or any other company out side of what Steph mentioned to classify as a "WV Swirl". Of course this is just my opinion but i think that term would be used to loosely and then the term could fall under every other company as well which would take away from there uniqueness. Not to get off topic here but didn't Akro move to WV also ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Just my 2 cents -- I think the term "West Virginia Swirl" came into being initially as a way to refer to mibs that were generally believed to be from the WV region but weren't recognisably by a "known" company -- basically nice to better-than-nice examples that couldn't be labeled as "Ravenswood," "Akro," or any of the few other marble companies that were the first to have their products recognized individually. The term may gradually fall out of use now that the other, smaller companies' mibs are being studied, and more and more can be attributed to their makers -- like Alley, which is beginning to come into its own as a producer of some really outstanding marbles. Maybe none of the other companies produced such a variety of stand-outs, but I know that you guys out there who have more access to and experience with swirls that might be Heaton, Cairo, etc., will eventually figure some of it out. For instance, I really like the distinction feelinmarbelous has shown us here between Alley & Ravenswood flames. When I saw it, I realized it was something that had been kicking around in my subconscious (or somewhere), but it hadn't surfaced as an "ah-ha" until just now, with good comparison photos. Thanx - - - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMopar Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Thank you Kevin. I'm with Ann...I like the comparison photo. It's helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okiemarble Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Don't u just feel that all of these great knowledgeale marble people need to add millions of pictures !!!! Hi Felecia how are you!!Been awhile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMopar Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Don't u just feel that all of these great knowledgeale marble people need to add millions of pictures !!!! Hi Felecia how are you!!Been awhile! OKIEEEEEEEEEE!!! Great to see you back! How have you been? I'd thought the same thing, lots of pictures with labels. It would be great, IF anyone had like a few of each maker and made some sort of pictoral display. Have a great Labor day weekend folks! :-) Felicia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sissydear Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 At the Texas Marble Show in October, Ron Shepherd and Bill McCaleb will be present with many marbles and will be conducting classes or workshops, or sessions on West Virginia swirls. Of course we can't become experts in the short time they have to teach us, but imagine how much we can learn from these two. Come on down to Texas. Bring some WV swirls and learn to ID at least some of them. Show starts with in room on Thursday and Friday and the show on Saturday. Edna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okiemarble Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Edna that would be the funnest thing EVER!!! but it's kinga far for me with 4 kids lol. Wow would it be cool to have a marble show in my little town of 1200 lol. One day Edna I will go!!! Promise! Felicia, I am like you I love marble pics, expecially from this site because the pictures are so clear ! I think between all the disagreements and opinions of marbles pictures can usuallly say alot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okiemarble Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 O yay, and I also have a hard time with the Alleys and Ravenswood. How many companies have a flame marble? And what is the best way to tell Christensen slag from other slags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredt Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Does anyone have an example of a "Davis" marble?? I don't think I have ever seen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 The literature talks about Vitro swirls from 1964 on... I don't know why they have not been included, but I do know that some of the big boys are working on this very topic. My vote would bethat since they made them , include them. I am not sure why they are hesitating on the subject. I don't think I have ever seen any. I have heard it said that some of the folks who dug Vitro found lots of them and think them very attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Several WV Swirl company's actually made some flames, some more brilliant than others, but the main ones off the top of my head that are considered the Standard of WV Swirls IMHO are Alley, Ravenswood, and Champion, it also kind of depends on the collector, are we talking 3 tips count for a legit flame ? Yes they do IMHO. Heres a pretty cool Flame, notice the glass and colors. If im not mistaken i think me and Ron come to the conclusion that this was a Champion. Kind of hard to see all the tips at once in a photo. Also a lot of Champion Furnace marbles are flames and down right KILLER they are probably one my favorite types of Wv Swirls ! Then there's the New Old Fashions made by Champion which can get flamey also. Ravenswood Flames ? i love those to lol, they actually made some very cool Transparent based ones, which could very easily be confused for Alley. Heres a peach based Flame made by Ravenswood Novelty. Heres a pretty cool little Ravenswood flame. Bought it in a lot sold as Champions, but it wound up being a Ravenswood Then there are the more common types like the one i posted above with the Alleys. You all have seen plenty of Alleys, if not check out a thread i started in Killer Alleys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sissydear Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 "Rumor" has it that ron thinks he can teach folks how to Id a good %age of their mibs in a very short time. More mibs you bring, the more you can learn... People coming from Arkansas, Tennessee, New York, Ontario, West Virginia, Illinois to name few... Edna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMopar Posted September 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Does anyone have an example of a "Davis" marble?? I don't think I have ever seen one. Yeah, what Fredt said ^ Hey, I'd go Edna, if I start walking now, I might make it in time..lol Hopefully someone will get some pictures because it sure sounds awesome! Great pics again Kevin! Thanx for showing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Would be cool if i had the time and money, but i don't so im stuck bugging him online to help me on the ones i cant figure out lol. Ron has help me come a long way in such a short time, so i can back up his claim, not that i need to though lol He is a legend in the WV department imho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Yeah, what Fredt said ^ Hey, I'd go Edna, if I start walking now, I might make it in time..lol Hopefully someone will get some pictures because it sure sounds awesome! Great pics again Kevin! Thanx for showing them. Your more than welcome Felicia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Oregon Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 First, on my previous comment, Akro was mentioned in Steve's initial post. Second, the Vitro 'swirls' were not like the regular WV swirls we are all trying to ID. They were more like a patch sorta swirled into the clear. Here's a pic that William took of Ron Shepherd display at New Philly back in 2006 (I think) with Davis on the left and Jackson on the right. Also a couple of other pics that Rory had posted osme time back. Really hard to ID these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 I can see why Davis mibs would be hard to single out from the champs and alleys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 First, on my previous comment, Akro was mentioned in Steve's initial post. Second, the Vitro 'swirls' were not like the regular WV swirls we are all trying to ID. They were more like a patch sorta swirled into the clear. Here's a pic that William took of Ron Shepherd display at New Philly back in 2006 (I think) with Davis on the left and Jackson on the right. Also a couple of other pics that Rory had posted osme time back. Really hard to ID these. I didn't mention Akro and if I did I am/was wrong. I really can tell the difference between Ohio and West Virginia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelnmarbleous Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Best place to see some Davis marbles, just scroll down and click the Davis Marble Works link. LINK TO DAVIS MIBS I always thought this one here could be a Davis swirl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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