westcoast_dave Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Looking for a good technical definition of what makes a machine-made marble a swirl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 A thin single stream of glass from a single furnace is piled up in a Receiving area "cup" "hole in a block" etc and cut off to make a single marble. It is the simplest type. Colors are mixed in the furnace directly above the outflow hole. A thin stream results in many folds "possibly flames if piled up in a circular motion" a thicker stream will result in the single fold types like the early buttcrack Jabos and V type Vitros. Some of the so called Peltier swirls were actually multiple streams from several furnaces each with a single glass color meeting just before being sheared. These are not the same as the Ohio, WV and Alox swirls. I wish I had Master Made shearing area plans as it seams to me they may have dropped directly to the rollers, this being the reason a folded up Master is one of the rarest marbles to find. I have only seen "had" one in over 25 years of collecting. Akro used a "cup" which did result in some being folded up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarbleDawg86 Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Great info, Galen. What do you mean by "folded up"? Any examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarbleDawg86 Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 When the glass stream is small it has to pile up (fold) into enough volume to make a marble. Here is a really neat pic. These were in a Game that contained Alley swirl(Although single color) and many could be seen that showed that when the stream piled up in a circular motion instead of just haphazardly it formed flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 What is the technical difference between a slag and a swirl, other than the generally earlier time period in which most slags were made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 none IMO it is really glass quality that seems to make a difference. It is possible many slags had the 2 colors of glass combined in a pot not the furnace? I believe this was definitely the case with some of the hand gathered types. Especially the early types made at Leightons factories. I think the glass was layered in ways to make special effects like the horizontals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarbleDawg86 Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 So it's all about the cup, and how glass enters it? Very informative! This has answered several questions I've had! Thanks Galen, you da man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted November 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yes, very informative. Just what i was looking for, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 The distance of the drop between the orifice and the shears also matters . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedidoll Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 it amazes me how the marbles can go thru all that and be perfectly fine,,,but drop one on the floor and it has an owie!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarbleDawg86 Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 It amazes me how the colors can stay "separate", just seems like in a molten state they would mix and come out looking like mud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 It is possible many slags had the 2 colors of glass combined in a pot not the furnace? I believe this was definitely the case with some of the hand gathered types. Especially the early types made at Leightons factories. I think the glass was layered in ways to make special effects like the horizontals. Well. I hadn't thought of the slag / transparent swirl in those terms before. Going to go off in a corner and mull it over. It just might work . . . Or not. Just occurred to me that from what I've seen, the transparent color and opaque white of the Pelt feathered slags were put together in the furnace, not a pot . . . hmmmmm . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 It wouldn't be a pot, The question would be whether different glass streams from separate furnaces met before the neat feathered effect was produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted November 26, 2014 Report Share Posted November 26, 2014 No, not from separate furnaces. The white glass stream was introduced frorm the side of the furnace containing the transparent colored glass, near the orifice. Hmmm. Have to go check about whether the white was introduced there as cullet or as already-molten glass. I forget. Been awhile since I looked at that stuff. But I suppose, for our purposes, it doesn't really matter, since the transparent color and the white together were funnelled into the single orifice from the one furnace. So . . . either pot or single stream for slags, is what you're thinking? To be continued . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 27, 2014 Report Share Posted November 27, 2014 There was a long row of machines at MFC with a gatherer on one side and a shearer on the other< I believe pots of glass were brought to each team. Machine mades were gob fed and probably a single stream. Ann do you have a copy of the patent that you are sure was used for the feathered machine made slags.(and I do believe all the true feathered typed are machine made(gob fed) I only saved the NLR patent pics? Found the patent Ann may be refering to and it sure does look and sound like it may have been associated with the feathered slags. https://www.google.com/patents/US1927650?dq=Sellers+Peltier&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ggJ6VNbKFdOwogTWooLgCA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarbleDawg86 Posted November 29, 2014 Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 Galen, I've sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted November 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 Peltier's process of striating the glass was definitely outlined in patent 1,927,650. Which would not be limited to only feathered type slags in my opinion, but many more striated possibilities with a few adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 Some statements in that patent definitely make me believe it was for the feathered slags Among the objects of the invention is to provide a novel method of and novel means for producing variegated or striated vitreous objects, such as glass marbles with included striae, with the striae or streaks or the like distinctly appearing in the mass or body of the object and thoroughly well distributed therein ally, or both, and to cause a piling of the vibrated or wavered stream so that the clear or transparent component of the mass may cohesively pile or weld together or unite, and hold the stria I in a more or less tortuous, intermixed or interlaced form or condition, which might be expressed as being held in suspension in the clear mass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Some statements in that patent definitely make me believe it was for the feathered slags . . . glass marbles with included striae, with the striae or streaks or the like distinctly appearing in the mass or body of the object and thoroughly well distributed therein . . . so that the clear or transparent component of the mass may cohesively pile or weld together or unite, and hold the stria I in a more or less tortuous, intermixed or interlaced form or condition, which might be expressed as being held in suspension in the clear mass. Striations, clear, transparent, in suspension in the clear mass being the operative words . . . I agree that with tweaking that set-up may have been used for other effects as well. But as Ron has pointed out, it's not really necessary to use that set-up if you want ribbons on an opaque body glass. The distance from the orifice to the shears and how the stream hits the shears (and other factors) can produce what would wind up looking like an NLR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 NLRs were produced from multiple nozzles and seperate color tanks, Completely different set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 In reality, yes. But theoretically you wouldn't necessarily need that to produce similar-to-NLR marbles, if that's what you wanted to do. Not saying it would be easy. But there are so many variables, including things we don't often think about (barometric pressure, drafts), that dang near anything is possible, I think. But the relevant questions for marble makers were, "is it easily repeatable and is it economically feasible?" The set-up you describe would produce NLRs more easily and reliably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 On thinking about it a little -- very little, really -- more trying to visualize the two types, (1) slags and (2) the later transparent swirls, do you all agree that in general, slags are swirled with opaque white glass, of varying thickness, generally in an irregular pattern, and are very variable? Lots of white to not much white? And, in general, transparent swirls are swirled with white glass that might be opaque but is frequently so thin as to seem translucent, of a more regular thickness and/or thinness, distributed more evenly in the marble, and are not quite so variable? It also seems to me that the transparent-colored bases are not as deep and rich as those used for slags (cost-cutting?) . . . Curious to hear others' thoughts . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 Time for a new thread? Most hand gathered slags have irregular or circular patterns. But the two seamers are more striped. CAC and even Peltier's feathered slag, in essence, has surface striping from seam to seam. There is another two seamed Peltier slag-type marble that i like calling a "jewel", because the base glass reminds me of gem stones. It is a 6 ribbon NLR slag-type (slag-looking) marble, with ribbons that can be swirly or straight. Base glass seems to be of extra high quality and is almost always mis-ID'ed as CAC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 Oh, so you wanna talk hand-gathered? Whee! We can do that. But you're right. Maybe we should start another thread with the machine-made slags/transparent swirls thing Steph was asking about . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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