ann Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 So. There are those (I believe Galen is one, although I could be wrong) who believe that machine-made slags (from about 1927 to around 1930) and machine-made transparent swirls (1930s-1940s) are the same thing, in essence. I guess they are in a way, since you can say both require a transparent colored base glass with opaque white (no other or additional colors) swirled in. But I've been asked the difference between the two before, and I know others probably have been too; for a long time I fumbled around with it, and then one day -- and only after I had handled a lot of both of them (but I confess, mainly slags) -- I realized that I DID think of them as two separate types. And although I thought I could separate the two easily enough in hand, I wasn't really sure of how to describe what I had seemed to absorb from the marbles themself. So this is kind of a self-check in a way. What I THINK I'm talking about. Please let me know what you-all think. Same? Different? Machine-made slags: transparent colored body glass, sometimes deep or vivid (red, purple, turquoise, bright green, uranium yellow, cobalt, etc.) with varying amounts of opaque white swirled in. The opaque white can fill a lot of the marble, or very little, If in stripes or ribbons, they can be thick, thin, or both at the same time. Lots of variation. Machine-made transparent swirls: transparent colored body glass, often a light color (light green, light blue, light amber, not a lot of variety), seldom the vivid slag colors, with varying amounts of white swirled in. Although the white is apparently opaque, it frequently is thin (or "dilute," a word I'm not sure can be used with glass as it can with color), and appears to be translucent. Usually in stripes or ribbons, of fairly even width or thickness, and fairly evenly distributed throughout the marble. Not all that much variation, in comparison to the earlier slags . . . ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 How they're made sounds the same. How they look is different. That's all I got. (This is my way of thanking you for the thread and bumping even though I got nuthin.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 The major difference in my opinion, is the way the molten mass is sheared. No seams for WV swirls. 2 seams for machine-made slags (fully automatic machines). And 1 seam for slags made on semi-automatic machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 In looking at my slags I find many that appear to be machine made and have no seams. But the glass is obviously different than the swirls I own? If I get a group of marbles it is usually fairly easy to pick out the slags with out looking close enough to even bother looking for patterns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 I can find at least one cut line on every slag i own. Akro being the hardest to locate, and sometimes needing a high powered light just to find it. So should those be referred to as only the ends of the stream and not seams, like the WV swirls? That doesn't make good sense to me. The cutline on the slags does not resemble a rounded tongue or stream end, it's look exactly like a straight-line cut mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 I believe it would need to be hand gathered to have only one cutline. There have been many theories about single seam marbles( of which I believe most are hand gathered). I got to spend a lot of time with a very knowledgeable engineer at the Vegas show and he was in agreement. He has been studying marbles for years as he makes reproductions. We will be getting together in the near future in the hope that I will finally be able to understand how many of the CACs were made. He is of the opinion most all non swirl types were hand gathered but I disagree with that.(for now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 I think a cutline is an intentional design and it's shape and consistency had as much importance to the maker/company as did the colors they use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 I believe it would need to be hand gathered to have only one cutline. I agree, that's why i mentioned it in my first post. "1 seam for slags made on a semi-automatic machine". Semi-automatic marble machines like the ones used at Peltier for hand gathered marbles. Fully-automatic machines like Peltier's US1,927,650 made slags with two seams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 I think a cutline is an intentional design and it's shape and consistency had as much importance to the maker/company as did the colors they use. I absolutely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 I completely disagree. I think shear set ups were designed to cut glass and the mark left was not designed , simply a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 You are probably correct....I just assumed if so much time and money was spent to protect a mechanical design in a marble then, consideration would be given to the cutlines and their visual effect. Back in my hole.........peep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 I agree, probably not designed to that much of a degree. But, shears are adjustable and there are some noticeable differences between certain companies. Come back out Mon.... Ann, the other difference i see is slags have a different look or quality to the base glass vs. WV swirls. Could the difference be batch glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 ok! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 I believe early swirls were also batch glass not cullet. Different formulas and handling is my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 Aren't more of the early swirls opaque, and not so many transparent? And that may be why the majority of transparent swirls have less of a quality look to the glass than slags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 Might be an interesting time to compare CAC's transparent swirls to their slags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 The base glass on their transparent swirls seems to be more bubbly and not quite as free of the heat looking waves found in lots of transparent glass, Some of the transparent glass used in their Opaque base swirls seems to be closer to slag type glass. Maybe the cost of materials and the methods of production were higher for slags and the cheaper formulary and production methods made the glass appear "less pure" in swirls than that found in slags, Here are some dug swirls from CAC. I think Brian dug them Some from a box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 Well, I like this discussion, but it's not really exactly what I was talking about. I wish I had good photo illustrations. I'll see if I can find some. Meanwhile, I'm talking about only the West Virginia swirls that have transparent bases. They're not necessarily like the opaque or the opaque/transparent WV swirls. I didn't really considered the shear marks, mainly because it's only the earlier marbles that have them (the slag 1927-1930 time period), and the later ones (1930s, 1940s) that don't. I was mainly talking about the difference between the two in (1) base glass and (2) white striping glass . . . Back later, hopefully, with some examples -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 So, slag . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 And slag . . . etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 The later transparent swirl . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 Ann, the other difference i see is slags have a different look or quality to the base glass vs. WV swirls. Could the difference be batch glass? That's what I think . . . (It may all have to do with money . . . ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Transparent swirls seem to have streams of opaque glass within a transparent base. Slags seem to have random opaque glass swrling in transparent base and sometimes random swirling opaque glass on surface of transparent base. Both seem to be intentional outcomes. CAC transparent swirls........ Slags........ Slaggy striped transparent single seam football........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 I guess I'm using the wrong terminology, but I don't know what else to call them. When I'm using the term transparent swirls I'm only talking about those made during the 1930s and 1940s. I don't mean to include CAC transparent swirls. (Much as I love them.) Just those made by the later companies, like Alox, Davis, etc. I've had beginning collectors talk to me about not understanding why we don't call them slags too. That's what I'm trying to get at. (Then I'd like to play some more with CAC transparent swirls!) Maybe another new thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Transparent swirls seem to have streams of opaque glass within a transparent base. Slags seem to have random opaque glass swrling in transparent base and sometimes random swirling opaque glass on surface of transparent base. Both seem to be intentional outcomes. I like the distinction between streams of opaque glass (transparent swirls) and . . . well, maybe globs of opaque glass (slags) . . . yes, that's the kind of distinction I was hoping you'd help me make! I feel better already. Gonna go get a Friday cupcake from the cupcake truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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