Shamrock Marbles Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 So a single cut line (single seam) mib would (or could) have been processed the same way except without the initial "nip", timing the glob drop to start falling just after a passing shear blade? Trying to visualize...... If you had a singnificant volume of glass on the punty, you could get maybe 2, 3 or more marbles from the same hand gathered glob, with the first one singe a seam or nip/cut mib and the ensuing mibs full doulbe seamers? Bill, So a single cut line (single seam) mib would (or could) have been processed the same way except without the initial "nip", timing the glob drop to start falling just after a passing shear blade? Yes. If you had a singnificant volume of glass on the punty, you could get maybe 2, 3 or more marbles from the same hand gathered glob, with the first one singe a seam or nip/cut mib and the ensuing mibs full doulbe seamers? Because the glass is cooling exponentially, I would not have a problem cut one gob off a punty. The second becomes doable, but problematic. The third is probably out of the question. Whatever is remaining can be reheated. One thing that is not discussed is the formulation of the glass. I wonder what was the "working time" of Cambridge or CA glass. A glass with a longer "working time" is something you can manipulate for a longer time before having to reheat. In an earlier post, I commented about my first attempts at making marbles. I used a Spectrum Cobalt and White. Little did I know at the time, was that the cobalt was extremely hard to work with and had a very short working time. The cobalt cooled quickly and was "crunchy" as I cut it. Go to the store and buy some laffy-taffy. If you cut this with a pair of scissors, you'll know what it feels like when I cut a marble off a punty. You can watch videos of people making hard candy. They keep the candy warm so that it is pliable. Finally, the glass doesn't drop off the punty with a constant cross-section. It is not delivered like a teat on a cow udder, that you can cut into uniform tootsie-roll sections. (That's the beauty of glass flowing through a nozzle.) Due to surface tension, the gob comes off as more of a tear-drop. Watch how quickly Larry moves over to the machine. He is turning the punty, so that the gather winds-up and stays attached. Once he gets to the delivery point, Larry stops turning. Gravity takes over. The gather starts flowing down. Once the gob drop starts to separate from the punty, the cross-section quickly narrows or necks down. I'm trying to find the right spot to cut. Here's the video: Again, the ratio of the gather mass to the punty diameter have an effect on the delivery. A large glass mass to small diameter punty causes the gob to separate quickly as one lump. A very small mass to a large diameter punty will have the gob hang on due to surface tension. Somewhere in the middle is happy land. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Thanks fior the further explanation John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 It was surprising to me to see just how fast the gather was taken to the shearer & machine! Great visual, all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 And like a biopharm "clean room".........environmentally contolled conditions........nice clean (electric?) furnace.........no source for possible refractory debris surface contamination of the gorgeous mibs John produces............just say'n........:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 And like a biopharm "clean room".........environmentally contolled conditions........nice clean (electric?) furnace.........no source for possible refractory debris surface contamination of the gorgeous mibs John produces............just say'n........:-) Nothing clean in that video. In that setup, there is an electric kiln. It is common to have refractory debris drop from the lid into the glass. The glory hole is heated with propane. If the gas/atmosphere mix is balanced, then the flame is clean, but one can get a reducing atmosphere. It is not uncommon for the glassworker to hit the opening of the gloryhole with the molten glass item as they move in and out. Doors and windows are open for fresh air and ventilation. Lots of stuff blowing through. Every time the train passes, dust and dirt drop from the rafters. A fleck of junk inside or on the marble surface was probably not enough to cause it to be rejected by the factory. New or old can have the same junk. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 Interesting............can't beat detailed first had perspective. Besides small particulate, that does resemble dirt or combustion byproducts, the mibs I have with surface debris also have small pieces of what looks like reddish brick. Are present day kilns lined with the same kind of refractory as the kilns that vintage marble makers would have used back in the day, or could the type/color of embedded refractory help to determine if a mib was likely vintage or contemporay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 The outside of the furnace is typically made of red brick and iron bandings for structural purposes. Would also figure the production floor to be of brick. Wheaton Village glass shop. http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g46627-d2202661-i45371288-Wheaton_Village-Millville_New_Jersey.html#last I would figure that the composition of fire brick is pretty much the same today as it was yesterday. Different manufacturers may have different formulations, but they all shot for the same performance envelope. Maybe others have thoughts. One can get "vintage fire brick" off of Ebay and possibly compare. Just need to figure when it was manufactured. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 Below is a video of a Robotic Gatherer. Many things to see. Angle of punty during gather. Rotation of punty during gather. Lift of punty during gather. Acceleration, velocity and deceleration of punty during delivery. Servo shear in one video and a person manually cutting in others. Got to get me one of these!! Did you notice the "tail" being wrapped up during the gather? Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffy Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 most the fire brick ive seen around here are not red....they are tannish or whiteish....are they color coded..??.I see lots of fire brick around here in glass factory or aluminum county...I know they have a code on em plus a temp they will stand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Alleynut Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 Great informational video's john, are they making plates?? and robotics would appear to take alot of the fun out of the whole deal,then one couldn't real call them hand made now could they, It's like My clay marbles as aposed to Carl Fishers, mine are completly hand made although I do use a Dremel to polish them, Carl has a Sphere machine for rounding his allthough he does his construction by hand and then the machine for the Perfect Sphere, I wonder what the true percentage of Vintage hand gathered, machine made, and Antique hand mades are the (perfect dimensional spheres) better tools now than then, but ??? DB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 "Can you see why one of the thoughtful speculations is that the exotics were really hand-gathered color compatibility tests with no production intentions? Hence, low quantities and no cullet?" John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Happy Easter everyone!! John........if, as you have thoughtfully speculated, the SOs and STs in question were actually color compatibility test mibs, it would have made good business sense for the plant to save and catalog them as color combo marble examples that either worked or didn't work, as part of exercising good QC and product development practices. If management wanted to try a new glass combo, they would have their fully documented test mib samples to guide their efforts. It would be reasonable for there to have been quite a collection of these compatibility sample marbles (and probably marble halves for formulations that did not work out), generated and cataloged over time. When the plant was closed, what would have happened to these samples? Regardless of whether a cache of these mibs may have been found in the ground or in someone’s attic, this hypothetical could explain how they may have surfaced as a cache of mibs that had never been previously seen before.....Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibcapper Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Happy Easter everyone!! John........if, as you have thoughtfully speculated, the SOs and STs in question were actually color compatibility test mibs, it would have made good business sense for the plant to save and catalog them as color combo marble examples that either worked or didn't work, as part of exercising good QC and product development practices. If management wanted to try a new glass combo, they would have their fully documented test mib samples to guide their efforts. It would be reasonable for there to have been quite a collection of these compatibility sample marbles (and probably marble halves for formulations that did not work out), generated and cataloged over time. When the plant was closed, what would have happened to these samples? Regardless of whether a cache of these mibs may have been found in the ground or in someone’s attic, this hypothetical could explain how they may have surfaced as a cache of mibs that had never been previously seen before.....Bill good thought, i totally agree that would be a solid business practice in every aspect, but i've not run across any documentation, not to say there aren't any, or samples of ... what you are saying, from any of the other marble makers ... peltier ... akro .. etc. ... or heard conversations relating to this. most co.'s had formula books .. some ... invoices ... personal communications ... inter-office ... documents that survived .. but not much did. are we waiting for another .. sample case discovery ... ?? of another co. ?? .. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Hey Bill, Maybe using Cambridge Glass as their primary (if not dedicated0 source of raw materials, required a level of proof testing that other makers using more traditional sources for their glass, did not need to undertake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibcapper Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Hey Bill, Maybe using Cambridge Glass as their primary (if not dedicated0 source of raw materials, required a level of proof testing that other makers using more traditional sources for their glass, did not need to undertake. yep ... true too ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Great informational video's john, are they making plates?? and robotics would appear to take alot of the fun out of the whole deal,then one couldn't real call them hand made now could they, It's like My clay marbles as aposed to Carl Fishers, mine are completly hand made although I do use a Dremel to polish them, Carl has a Sphere machine for rounding his allthough he does his construction by hand and then the machine for the Perfect Sphere, I wonder what the true percentage of Vintage hand gathered, machine made, and Antique hand mades are the (perfect dimensional spheres) better tools now than then, but ??? DB. Dave, I think a "lens" is being pressed in the first video. It does look like a dinner plate being weighed in the third video. "Fun"? I would suspect, that after doing this day-in-and-day-out for a month (or less), one would lose the smile off their face. --> --> The "perfect" sphere is quite a misnomer. Marbles I have made can vary 0.001" (min to max) up to 0.015" (min to max). It is all a bell curve distribution. Outliers would be "eggs" and "footballs". Real outliers are "loops" and "lozenges". The marble making equipment today is really no more advanced than 50+ years ago. They all work within the same physics framework. It is how all the variables are "adjusted" that determine the outcomes. Even "new" machines being fabricated today are based on "old" machines. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 good thought, i totally agree that would be a solid business practice in every aspect, but i've not run across any documentation, not to say there aren't any, or samples of ... what you are saying, from any of the other marble makers ... peltier ... akro .. etc. ... or heard conversations relating to this. most co.'s had formula books .. some ... invoices ... personal communications ... inter-office ... documents that survived .. but not much did. are we waiting for another .. sample case discovery ... ?? of another co. ?? .. bill I've read (forget where, but I could track it down, I think) that CAC files were destroyed by the employees who closed the plant. Maybe the papers might have included info about the other interesting doings of the owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibcapper Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 I've read (forget where, but I could track it down, I think) that CAC files were destroyed by the employees who closed the plant. Maybe the papers might have included info about the other interesting doings of the owners? yes they did ann... and i'm still trying to find them and kik their butts ... ... and, with the co. background .. as it were ... probably true of your ending statement ..... egads ... what fieldlers formula's could have still be producing ..... bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Dreaming of a sample case discovery . . . By me, I mean. Hansel, If you find one, you'll tell us. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 yes they did ann... and i'm still trying to find them and kik their butts ... ... and, with the co. background .. as it were ... probably true of your ending statement ..... egads ... what fieldlers formula's could have still be producing ..... bill Bill, Arnold's formulas (at least some) are documented in writing and available today for reproduction. Reference "Henry T. Hellmers' Secret Batch Book of Glass Formulae" by J.W. Courter. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibcapper Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Bill, Arnold's formulas (at least some) are documented in writing and available today for reproduction. Reference "Henry T. Hellmers' Secret Batch Book of Glass Formulae" by J.W. Courter. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" didn't know that ... thanks .. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 didn't know that ... thanks .. bill Bill, Colors attributed directly to A. Fiedler in the book: Jade Green Opal - Akro Agate - 11-1-1923 (Page 106). Lavender Opal - Akro Agate - 10-1-23 (Page 120). Yellow Opal - Akro Agate - 10-1-23 (Page 193). Transparent Green - Original Fiedler Color - Akro Agate - 9-1-23 (Page 324). There is also a formula for: Transparent Selenium Ruby - Christensen Agate - Cambridge O. - 6-20-23 (Page 237). However, there are numerous Cambridge Glass and Akro Glass formulae without direct attribution, that may have been from the hand of Arnold. We'll never know. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 The 1923 date in Hellmers' book for transparent selenium ruby at / from Christensen Agate has puzzled me for awhile. Although Jenkins was granted a machine patent in 1924, CAC wasn't officially founded until 1925. And if the formula's source was by a glass man (Fiedler) we think was so well-known -- and Hellmers certainly knew or knew of Fiedler -- wouldn't he have noted that too, as he did on the four formulae he directly attributed to Fiedler? Apparently the first "commercially-viable" selenium ruby was produced by Henry Hellmers at Cambridge Glass.. And what the heck.Where's Steph's "can of worms" smiley? Oh, might as well . . . better than working . . . I suspect that Fiedler's high reputation may not be entirely deserved. And I am not alone. You know who you are . . . Not that he wasn't good, mind you. I mean, what spectacular marbles some CACs are. And maybe by the time he got to CAC, he was given free-enough rein (and enough money) to develop their electric colors. And so forth. But consider: Yes, Fiedler initially was at Akro Agate. But who was hired by Akro in 1921 straight out of school to replace him? Henry Hellmers. And I suspect that if, at that time, Fiedler's colors had been generally superior in any way, then Hellmers would have written down (or tried) more than four. But just a suspicion. Sellars Peltier hired Fiedler to set up (hand-gathered) marble production at Peltier Glass. After a great deal of difficulty and expense (some of which is documented in a long and amusing letter in the Pelt safe papers, which a few others of you have also seen, and all might see someday -- including the trials & tribulations of the development of the Cerise, the Prima Agate, and the Onyx), Sellers Peltier himself took over and Arnold was . . . let go. And we've just had a good and interesting discussion on CAC's use of Cambridge glass. And in 1930 Hellmers was hired to be the glass chemist at Cambridge. about the time CAC apparently was falling apart. Anyway, I think there's certainly enough information now to make us wonder. Be interesting to await developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibcapper Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 i need to get over to clarksburg and see if i can get some early info. from r. hardy concerning his knowledge, if any, on who was doing the mixing in those days. verrrry interesting thread. thanks ... bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 That would be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 This is from D. Rios (poplarhead) I believe. It was from a conversation we had long ago via email, I dont think he would mind and he stops by here. If there is an issue I will remove, but it is very insightful. "Christensen agate marbles led me to investigate cambridge glass which is an elegant glass in the glass hobby as opposed to depression glass. within cambridge glass i found the opaque and transparent glass used in christensen agate marbles. i recommend a book named Colors in Cambridge Glass by the National Cambridge Collector's group. there you will find the following opaque colors. dates when the color was first introduced are provided. Azurite 1922 - a light blue Ebony 1922 - black Primrose 1923 - a yellow with "considerable warmth and volume...medium depth and not the least extreme in brilliance" Helio 1923 - a lavendar color from the purple family Carrara 1923 - a brilliant, full bodied white opaque. it shows opalescence at the edges or thinner sections when held to the light. the least common of the opaque colors Jade 1924 - medium blue green opaque Ivory 1924 - a light cream custard white opaque Avocado 1927 thru 1928 only - a rich green opaque "that tends toward the yellow side of the green specturm" Crown Tuscan 1932 - a flesh color these are the opaque colors that were available to the Christensen Agate company in the form of cutlet. In fact by the time Christensen Agate started making marbles in Cambridge, they would have had access to opaque cutlet. There are a few more opaque colors that Cambridge introducted in the late 30s after the marble company went out of business and later after the war in the 50s when the glass factory reopened. you will see the opaque colors listed on guineas. i don't think Crown Tuscan 1932 was used. there were also some experimental opaque colors like orange and a lighter green that are mentioned in the book. a date is not give for these colors but we see them on guineas. i am not sure about opaque red. it is not mentioned in the Cambridge book at all. i think it might have been a blend on guineas. if you see a lot of opaque red on a guinea that should be a warning sign. also if the yellow on a guinea is dark and oily that should also be a warning sign. the primrose yellow was a soft lighter yellow. the electric yellow was bright and "electric" nows lets talk a bit about transparent colors Topaz 1923 - a yellow green often called vaseline. Mulberry 1923 - a medium to deep shade of amethyst considered dull compared to the later amethyst color Emerald 1923 - a light shade of green Amber 1924 - a deep brown tone Madeira 1929 advertised for one year - a light golden shade halfway between canary yellow and deep amber Cobalt Blue 1 1920s - a medium light blue Peach Blo 1925 - a soft pink with "warmth and sparkle" Cobalt Blue 2 1925 - 1926 - slightly darker than Cobalt Blue 1 tends to have a gathering effect shows florescence under black light Ritz Blue 1928 - 1930s - very similar to Cobalt Blue 2 but does not floresce under a black light Bluebell 1926 used for only a short time - a darker transparant blue with "considerable sparkle" Willow Blue 1928 - a sky blue Gold Krystol 1929 - light yellow with no amber tint Carmen 1931 - a rich full bodied red Amethyst 1931 - a burgundy or deep amethyst Royal Blue 1931 - a deep blue Forest Green 1931 - "a soft, cool, dark shade of green that tends toward yellow" Heatherbloom 1931 - 1935 - in natural light a pale orchid or lavendar, in florescent light light blue or gray There are others but they came after the Christensen Agate Company went out of business. Lets talk about the transparent colors used as a matrix for guineas. They used a clear glass. They used an amber glass that could have been Amber or Madeira. Their cobalt blue is dark. It might have been Royal Blue. All other Cambridge blues are much lighter even the ones they called Cobalt Blue. I really don't how much access Christensen Agate had to the Cambridge transparent colors introduced in 1931. These were new to Cambridge and i am sure by then the marbles were not selling and production was coming to a halt. You don't see Carmen, Amethyst, or Heatherbloom in their marbles. So I don't think the green and blue that you do see was either Royal Blue or Forest Green. I think they made their own dark cobalt blue and green. They were also making electric colors which i think is the height of their contribution to the marble world. These include electric colored slags and the opaque electric orange, yellow, and green used on striped opaques and striped transparents. Also one has to prize their peach slag which was made with Peach Blo and white opaque glass. The glass chemist, Fiedler, must have known the glass chemistry used in Czech glass. Thats how he knew how to do guineas and electric colors. When you think of Christensen Agate marbles you must wonder about their production consistency. Based on what we know of original packaging those marbles that could be produced with some consistency seem to be in the packages. I think there was a lot of experimentation. How many marbles were given away or tossed because they didn't meet production objectives? When you look at a box of Shamrock marbles you love the variation. I am not sure Christensen Agate wanted to fill a box with that much variation. Keep in mind kids of the day prized the lowly stone agate marble. Akro did so many things to reproduce the stone agate effect in their glass marbles. My advice to collectors is too learn the Cambridge colors. Buy one piece of Cambridge glass for each opaque and transparent color. When you look at Christensen Agate marbles look for those colors. Look for the electric colors. Look for cutlines. Books are great but seeing real Christensen Agate marbles with your eyes provides a lot of education. Whether undergound or in a jar somewhere they are out there. If you run into me say hello. OPAQUE COLORS #1 white, #2 black, #3 red,#4 dk. brown, #43 pink, #44 lt. brown, #5 tan, #6 orange, #7 peach salmon, #8 ruddy salmon, #9 true green, #10 lt. green, #11 lime green, #12 olive green, #13 yellow, #14 purple, #15 lavender, #16 grey, #17 blue, #18 baby blue #46 copper, 47 deep wine, 49 lt grey, 50 seafoam green ELECTRIC COLORS #19 el. yellow, #20 el. orange, #21 el. red, #22 el. green TRANSPARENT COLORS #23 clear, #24 red, #25 lt. amber, #26 dk. amber, #27 butterscotch, #28 peach, #29 apricot, #30 green that fluoreses, #32 lt. green, #33 aqua, #34 extremely lt.blue, #35 lt. blue, #36 cobalt blue, #37 dark blue, #38 maglight blue, #39 amethyst, #40 purple, #41 lavender, #42 yellow, #45 orange, 48 olive green, 51 turqouise" Enjoy. Craig Craig, Do you Know the genesis of the last list of colors in your post? I notice they are in a different font. Is this a list of colors generated by CA collectors in their hope to identify all colors and possible permutations and combinations (circa 2002)? That is, that last list is not an actual Arnold Fiedler/CA document of used colors. Thanks. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts