Crudely made chinas

[hdesousa]

Might belong in the ID forum; if so, please move.

A post this morning, since removed, on a facebook group on antique German marbles, reminded me of these marbles I've had for a couple years.  Bought them from the guy who bought them on eBay four years ago.  About 11/16", low fired clay, crudely made (not entirely spherical) and crudely painted. Probably old.  Exact same colors as some "PA Dutch marbles".  Anyone have any information about them?

 

 

[Steph]

That Facebook post immediately made me remember an old conversation where Sue Cooper reluctantly did a comparison between what we thought a crudely painted modern marble and an authentic old ceramic.

So I subscribed to follow the conversation.  

But you say the Facebook pic is now gone?  My first attempt to pull up Scoop's discussion came up empty.  So I don't have anything specific to offer other than being curious why it was deemed that the crudely painted marbles were an early version.  My default would not be to assume that a messier version was an older version. 

 

[Ric]

I do not have any of these but they are very interesting. I agree that the colors look identical to the "PA Dutch" but all of those I have seen are much larger, like the one you show. Have you seen "PA Dutch" marbles in this size that are the quality of the large one you're showing? And is the difference in the bodies of the small ones and the large one as apparent in hand as it seems in your photo?

[hdesousa]

Other than the colors, nothing about these clay marbles resembles a "PA Dutch".  They have a shellac finish, which comes off with an alcohol wipe. The PA Dutch marbles much larger and denser, are high fired ceramic and can be washed with impunity.

 

[Ric]

All I will add is that it seems to me, if someone was attempting to deceive, matching colors would likely be the easiest part.

[Jeff54]

I think you've already solved this: "shellac finish, which comes off with an alcohol wipe." = Fake ;(

[hdesousa]

Toys have traditionally been painted with colored shellac.

[I'llhavethat1]

Not entirely sure what we're looking at here, but the marbles in the first pic look pretty clean.  Also assuming they were painted after firing.  I suppose anyone at any time could make/paint clay marbles in small quantities.  And that red white and blue would be pretty popular color choices. 

[akroorka]

Your instincts will shine through hdesousa. 
You asked for any info on these—none from me, I have never seen anything like these smaller ones
I agree that shellac is one of the oldest uses of any varnish type materiel used and that it is in fact alcohol based. 
I am looking at the brush strokes— kindergarten imho. There are several strokes on each petal. They may have been made by children—I hope not.
The bigger one that you show in your last image is in a league by its own.
Marble—On!!