B.T. Posted August 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Here's a few of crazy single shearmark c.a.'s .... .... an two opaques and a transparent. There's some wild loopy action going on in their construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Big John, I get hose marks on some of my marbles. It is from the scissors, but I don't understand what is really happening. Then again, I haven't really thought about it too much. LOL! Bill, Stunning pictures! I would have to say that I believe your photos show "First of Gather" marbles. (Notice I didn't use "End of Cane" there?) I really love that last one. If you rotate the cut line 180 degrees, it would give you the Eyes-on-the-Side look of your second marble. If you take that second marble and rotate the cut 180 degrees, you'd get the looping folds like the third marble. Again, great macro work! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roany poany Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 I hesitate to buy the sprinkled frit theory. If it were true, the colors wouldnt be in the center of the marble , would they? Jus Sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted September 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Sure they could??? If the initial gather is a cylinder rolled in frit and then worked with a marver and folded over two of the external hemispheres, (surfaces), where the frit was applied are now in the center of the gob. This is could also explain way there are large open area's of transparent glass windows on the surface of many guineas????In this case the center, (glass), of the initial gather is now on the outside. John has demonstrated this at several marble shows. He works the gather, shears it, then drops the smaller gobs into his rounding machine. Thus, creating shear marks, both single and double where he cut the initial gather. Some of John's awesome Shamrock marbles have shear marks virtually the same as vintage c.a.'s. You saw the guinea above!! I have some of his marbles that also have colors in the base glass.... because the initial gather was worked, some of the external surfaces are now inside the gather and subsequently inside marbles. I bet he might be able to make a guinea with colored glass on the inside:-) Striped opaques have glass that is on the surface that summerged into the base, the glass must have been worked in some way also. I have pieces of striped opaques that clearly show this What about submarines???:-) How the glass is manipulated prior to being sheared and dropped into the rounding mechanism determines what the marbles will look like and what observable construction features will be visible. The rollers or screws only make the gobs round they don't create construction features.?????? remember, Buddy... this is nothing more than pure speculation????? Come watch me make some marbles and I'll show you the folding part at leasst. I don't have a rounding machine and I don't make multi-marble gathers, just single gathered and mine have ponty marbks...not shear marks!!! We can make a bunch of bluezngreenz too:-)... as many as you want!!! I am most likely wrong but I still don't think they were made on fully automatic machines. I just don't see how a fully automatic machine could make marbles with smooth spots, and colored glass on the inside:-)??? If the the frit is not worked in they would look like vacors??? Do the spotted vacors have glass, (spots), on the inside???? :-) It's possible the patent time line relative to c.a.c's production timeline may support this also?? Hopefully John, will add his perspective from his own experience making marble by gathering glass, twisting it, folding it and dropping a gob from his gather into his rounding machine. I am sure I did not do so near as well as he could. I also do not speak for John and he may very well correct me on fine points!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roany poany Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 dang your hide Bill, now you have me scratching my head, again. the scenario you explained makes total and complete sense. I was thinking production may have been more along the lines of the mega marbles "Galaxy", but clearly (pun intended) they have no action going on inside. (I bet they have some kinda poop chute squirting out frit as the marbles come out of the gob feeder...LOL) Anyway, thanks for the insight . We can make a bunch of bluezngreenz too:-)... as many as you want!!! you mean there's no restriction laws in Iowa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slagmarble Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Ask a silly (stupid) question I know but this ones been eating at me... So we have handgathered opaques, transparents (blue ray at least), and slags from CAC. Why aren't there handgathered Guineas? -Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Buddy, You bring up a great point! First, I hope I didn't confuse the situation with my second "sprinkled frit" marble. There are three distinct marbles that are each constructed differently. 1) CA Guinea 2) Vitro 3) Mega/Vacor CA Guineas (Hand-gathered and Machine-rounded) A gather of base glass (cobalt, amber, clear, etc...) is collected on the end of a punty rod. The gathering-boy then rolls the gather in frit laying on a marver. Now, because the frit is cold, the dots need to be heated to melt in with the base glass. There is not enough heat in the base glass to integrate the frit completely. The gathering-boy then reheats the complete gather in the glory hole. Once the glass is back up to temperature, the gathering-boy removes the gather from the glory hole and brings it to the forming machine. A gob (or gobs) are cut off into the machine for rounding. The first gob will have one cut-line and each successive gob will have two. Vitro (Gob-Fed and Machine Rounded) Basically, a base color gob is sheared from a stream of glass extruding from a nozzle. Once the gob is free of the stream, glass frit can be sprinkle on it as it travels down a trough to the rounding machine or at the rounding machine. There is enough heat in the base glass for some of the frit to adhere, but not enough to completely melt the frit smooth. These marbles are very rough. The edges of the frit are still sharp and could cut you. Also, some of the frit is not stuck well, so it can fall off during shipping or handling. Mega/Vacor (Gob-Fed and Machine Rounded) These are most likely made the same way as Vitro, but the went one step further. As the gob with frit is rolling down the marble machine, flame (heat) is re-applied to melt in the frit better and also smooth over the rough edges. (They could have also be tumbled or acid etched smoothe the frit edges.) _____ Now, both the Vitro and Megas/Vacor marbles have exterior decoration. CA Guineas sometimes have color inside. Now, Bill did a fatastic job of describing how color gets inside. Thanks Bill! I have transparent marbles that show frit inside and that was the result of manipulating the glass like Bill described. The green Guinea has color inside, but the photo doesn't show it. There is at least one other way for color to get inside... _____ Remember that these gathering-boys at CA are moving fast. No motion is wasted. They got paid on what they made. Imagine that it was the last gob cut off the gather. Either there wasn't anymore glass to cut or the glass got too cold to keep cutting (see Bill's first picture in this post). The gathering-boy would immediately go get another gather. If there was remnant glass on the rod, who cares? He'd just pick up some more base glass and start the process all over again. The "old" gather with frit was then enveloped in a "new" gather of base glass. Hence, frit inside. Hope this helps. ISincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 This is a great theory but I just do not see any of the patterns that are found on almost all other handgathered marbles. German ground pontils Leightons to MFC or Other handgathered slags all exhibit the classic looping or 9 type pattern when made in such a way to be cost effective. (minimal minipulation). And I have never seen any evidence in the interior of a CAC Guinea of the handgathering process. I still feel it was something else with the CACs. Awsome thread. Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slagmarble Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 I thought about that too Galen, thats why I felt compelled to ask the HG question...where are all the "9" pattern guineas? Then I thought...the only reason we can see the 9 in the first place is because the gathered glass was pre-mixed (in the case of slags opaque white and a transparent base) and then twisted. Since (as far as I know) Guineas only come in a uniform single transparent base color...and based on the knowledge presented here the frit could be added after the gather...would there even be evidence of the handgather left aside from a shear mark? I think the inefficiency of having the extra step could explain why Guineas are a tough catch to begin with. If its true the extra step might make them less cost efficient and therefore less were made. -Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted September 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Perhaps there are different means of hand gathering glass.???:-):-)... that ultimately creates different construction features. In the case of guineas the gather may have been constructed differently than the stereotypic hand gathered marble, (slags, german marbles, and so on), which all manifested archetypical construction features we associate with the term hand gathered... mainly nines and tails. Were slags, german marbles, and other transitionals gathers made with a more viscous glass, (hotter), and thus swirled together, needing less manipulation??? Less colors being combined to form the gather ... does this eqaute to less manipulation??? I know someone who makes these awesome oxblood marbles who might be able to answer that question??? :-) Guineas may have needed more manipulation, ( a completelty different gathering process mani;ulating less viscous glass...cooler), to get the base glass and the spots to bond smoothly as shown in the difference between vacors and guineas?? In all the years I have collected c.a’s I would have never had thought this were plausible until seeing actual demonstrations on John’s machine. Is it possible that the term hand gathered is not the right term, perhaps hand manipulated would be a better means of describing the process:-) Anyway, either way, six of one a half dozen of another...think outside the SPHERE!!!!.....lol:-).... mibolution:-) it's all good to me... I just like pretty marbles:-) BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted September 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Brad, I think your observations about the differences in the gathers are the key... I was typing my thoughts right after you posted and I did not see them prior to posting my response... BT ps:-) Perhaps the c.a. company did not conern itself with what was cost effective... maybe this is part of the reason with others which contributed to it's demise??? lol:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Galen, I see your perspective. The classic "9" and "tail" is a natural result of the gathering process. When you lift your gather out of the pot, the molten glass will flow and drip. To stop this, the gathering boy would turn his rod "clockwise". The gathering boy uses viscosity, surface tension and gravity in his favor. He would also raise the gathering end higher and the glass "tail" would wind toward his hands around the gather. This will result in a standard "9" with a "tail". Try this with honey. For contrast, add a couple drops of food coloring to the top of the honey and try to do a gather. See if you can get a "9" to appear on the end of the wood dipper. For slags, white was added to the pot of transparent base. The punty was inserted, turned and lifted. The gathering boy then brought the single gather to the machine for shearing. Simple and quick. ----- The German ground pontil marbles took a lot of time to finish. Just imagine having to go back afterward and cold finish each marble. This is were Leighton made his mark (no pun intended). Leighton improved on this process with his hand tool and melting the pontils. M.F. Christensen further improved this again by automating the rounding and finishing process into one final step. ----- So, why would it appear that CA went backwards and spent more time making marbles? My answer is simple. If you are making blue and white onyx marbles along with Akro and Peltier, what would you do to stand out? The Guineas definitely stood out. I only wish we could get some marble prices for the day and compare them. Another strength that CA had was color. But my belief is that whatever strengths they had, they couldn't compete financially over the long run. ----- Back to the Guinea. So, if you do an initial gather of cobalt glass, since it is single color, there will be little or no evidence of a "9" (kind of like single color opaques). Once it is rolled in frit, any signs of a "9" will be covered. After this point, there is nothing in the manipulation process that would create a discrete "9" like those on slags. Galen, I agree this is a great thread and we should keep exploring how's and why's. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Buddy, Your pictures of marble fragments are quite excellent dude! I forgot one element about the frit inside the Guineas. When making glass objects, the craftsperson has to be concerned with the COE (coefficient of expansion) of the glasses used. Today, I use 90 (Bullseye), 96 (Spectrum) and 104 (Moretti). I was told that you could get away with slightly different COE glass if it was applied to the surface. But, if that glass got down into the matrix, then watch out! So, maybe the reason we have Guinea artifacts that show the frit down in the matrix is because some of the frit is incompatible glass. Another reason, may be that the center was too cool and caused unreasonable stresses during the rounding process. Just some thoughts to chew with the Tennesse Twist. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanoak Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Hey guys I thought about this hand gathered guinea idea and decided on a different approach to look for evidence of a 9. I took my guineas to the shop and started tapping on one with a hammer, thinking that it might break along a fold and reveal a swirling 9. The first one, well I guess my hammer was to big, anyway too many little pieces, so the next one I tried like you see them cut diamonds in the movies, you know a chisle, hell I missed the chisle and hit my thumb, jumped around cussing and threw the hammer down and it hit the original guinea box with the remaining guineas in it and of course they all spilled on the floor and now none of them are mint and several broke in half just like I had originally hoped to do but I still don't see a nine. I'm open for suggestions on what I should do next. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted September 2, 2006 Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Brad, Thanks for the idea! I wonder what it would be like to make a Guinea-Nine? Thanks for adding to the discussion. Bill, Great points! The monkier "Hand-Gathered" has been a sticking point for some. Maybe we should drop this term, since no "hand" actually touches the hot glass?! LOL! To "think outside the sphere" is what it's all about. You should make a t-shirt for Amana 2007 that has that slogan! Or, do one with Benny that says, "Think Fresh!" Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Bill, I feel you pain! Stop! Do no more harm! Send me all your CA's and I will get them split for you at no charge. Yes, that's right. NO CHARGE. LOL! Sincerely, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted September 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2006 Too funny John.... I am almost done with my next shirt design and it does say.... Think Outside of the Sphere:-)...... of cousre it's full of killer marbles too!! BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 And I thought I was the only one that took a hammer to those glass balls. Peace,Galen brings his spoon out when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KambridgeKid Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Hello, I'm bumping this up. I have an interesting picture to show as soon as I figure out how to do it. What I have are JPEG pictures on a floppy disk. I tried loading them in the test forum using the guide there but all I get is the dreaded box with the red X. Any help would be greatly appreiciated. Thanks. Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian5635 Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 Kid- You will need to find a photo host website and upload your pics to it first. Then, you can copy the URL into the Insert Image icon/box. I use photobucket as a host and it's free. www.photobucket.com B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckEye Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Bump for sake of awesomeness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Any one that wants to make themselves completely insane needs to study CAC marbles up close and personal. The construction on Guineas is usually quite similar to the Striped Transparents and Opaques. Here you go: try and explain these features. I tried to figure it out with many substances and just got closer to the rubber room. I gave up. I find the spotting and linear stretching much too directional to attribute to handwork. JMHHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckEye Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I just got a guinea that is stretched almost flame like on one side and spotted on the other side of the seam. I find these construction aspects interesting. I have about 80 halves of guineas, ill look them over close and see if they have any interesting characteristics. Hey is the amber base rarer than cobalt? You really don't see those. What about red based and black based? Is the black base just deep red near opaqueness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Anybody here get this lot (plus guinea halves) that was sold on ebay recently? I'd love closer and more detailed photos . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now