Nantucketdink

I believe Bogard bags can be found with MK shooter cats in them too. I do not believe Bogard made shooter swirls or patches or whatever those are, but they very well probably packaged them. Bogard definitely packaged some marbles from other makers under their own labels, I just don't believe they mixed their own marbles and other makers together in the same bags with Bogard headers.

I think I just borrowed these from Alan's site but they came up on image searches

You know, the Big Shot Heaton cats eye bags. They are still relatively common today if you go looking for them. The ones that have the Bogard label stapled over them can also be found fairly easily. I think the bags are in the books too. I'll have to pull a few photos off the web hold on...

Sure we know what Heaton cats look like. They are mostly clean structured 4 vanes. For accuracy purposes, they have been dug and located in original factory bags. I also have a few of the original Heaton factory bags that had the Bogard labels stapled on top. Those ones frequently have some very nice ones in them. I think that suggesting that Heaton cats are mixed in with the Bogard cats in the same bag makes it easier for people to dispel the possibility that Bogard actually might have made some simple opaque white based swirls. Would anybodyelse besides me be happy if they found out Bogard did actually make a few swirls?

This blister "looks" like Heatons too, but I think these were made by Bogard. Sure Bogard made a couple of runs of very distinct funky cats with unusual structures, but I also believe they made a bunch of 4 standard 4 vanes that look just like Heatons, but there are some different color combos.

Many of the single color 4 vane Bogard cats are indistinguishable from the Heaton single color ones. I can't tell the difference. Do some people believe Bogard didn't make any of the 4 vane cats they sold? Who believes they have a decent list of known Heaton multi colored cats eyes? Who believes they have a decent list of known Bogard multi colored 4 vane cats? Please share them.

These 50 count Bogard bags are not the ones that have the Bogard labels stapled over the Heaton labels. I have obtained a few of these ones that include swirls, each time from a completely different source and positively believe them to be headered at Bogard. I only find them in the 50 count bags and imagine they were all packaged at the same time because the mix is similar among the bags. I am sure others who have bothered to try to collect Bogard marbles in any real way at all must have some of these bags with the swirls in them. I opened all of mine, but do have them stored together and kept the opened bags. I don't remember the bag seams off the top of my head and it would take some work to uncover all of them from my stash. I think I am going to try to dig them out to see if there are Heaton cats mixed in or not. Didn't take note of it but I should.

If Dennis Webb said they did in a book, Johnson et al paraphrased they did in a book, and I have found some in factory bags including a color combo previously not IDed as Heaton in any literature, I personally would tend to believe they made a few very simple opaque white based swirls. I can't positively ID Heaton swirl patterns even though I have a few hundred dug examples. I haven't spent enough time studying them. Maybe I should... a call to Jack would be helpful if he clearly remembers one way or another. Somebody at Bogard could have easily spent a day trying to make swirls that was forgotten too. People's memories about marble production are not always perfect.

No phone call for me. I hate calling people I don't know. Maybe someone who knows him would ask.

Anyone want to call Jack B and ask?

Blue and green on a white base is not a known Heaton color. That doesn't eliminate Heaton as the maker, but it isn't a known marble by them. It is the most distinct of the combos I have found in these bags. I think I only found 4 or maybe 5 of these Bogard bags that have swirls in them too so far. This is a worthy tangent. You would imagine someone who knew Jack Bogard might clarify whether they did or did not make some simple white based swirls or not.

Whether or not these are legit Bogard swirls in the bags can be a mystery, but I like to believe they are Bogards. There are only a few different ones.

I have Bogard white based swirls found in factory bags in 2 or 3 separate color combos. Good enough for me.

I can't copy and paste either one

I am sure Akro swirls and Bogard swirls would be included when hard to attribute.

I looked up some definitions and found one from the museum and one from marble bag collector extraordinaire Al Rasmus that were both helpful. Al's was the most helpful explanation.

Hopefully by the end of this thread I will understand what West Virginia swirl fully means. I really thought it had a timeline essence to it.

Do D.A.S. swirl type marbles made in Pennsboro classify? Why or why not?

That is my question ...what does West Virginia swirl mean? Does it really just mean swirls made by marble companies located in West Virginia, or is it a classification for marbles that look like the swirls made by American companies back in the day? Can some Vacors be WV swirls? Can JABOs? Are only Champion swirls made prior to 1970 WV swirls? What does it mean?

Vitro shooters that don't qualify as WV swirls for discussion's sake

OK, but please define the requirements for that list so I am clear. Does age have anything to do with it? For example, do Champion swirls made in 2000s qualify? If so, why/how?

I assumed we were talking about American swirls. Were we really talking about West Virginia factories only? When I hear WV swirl (which she didn't actually say but I assumed she meant), I have always assumed it meant a swirl type marble that was unattributable to the person talking about it basically, but could have been made anywhere in the world. What does West Virginia swirl mean?

like the top left ones

The 3 Steph isn't sure about are JABOs for sure. That bottom right is most likely Alley, but could be JABO. The top left has a chance of JABO too, but not sure.

Champion New Old Fashioned perhaps...