ann Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Ann, at first, I wanted to TOTALLY agree with that statement!! That thing looks like a WRECK!!! But then.... Consider that it's back-lit in every picture... The colors are totally screwed up and it's just an incredible mess... But, is there ANY possibility that it could be a victim of terrible photography??? I personally don't like Guineas and don't own one... So, I don't know much about the cut lines and patterns, which would probably make it easy to settle my question, here. I'm just wonderin' if the backlighting could be deceiving it's real look??? Good point Sue -- I don't think it's backlit in photos 2 and 3, or at least not enough to overpower the front lighting . . . but as badly as I want to say something about the colors being ALL WRONG I'm trying to refrain, having promised myself (and others!) I would no longer base an ID on color, since the color reproduced by cameras and monitors is not reliably "true." That said, I admit I AM having a hard time pinning down exactly what's telling me "this is not right." I have seen a number of guineas lit from behind, and they just don't look like this. Something's off about the structure, and something's off about the transparancy of the colored spots, and the seam, well, it's kinda funny looking too, and . . . I don't know. I wouldn't give anybody five bucks for it myself. But some people obviously would! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I have seen a number of guineas lit from behind, and they just don't look like this. Something's off about the structure, and something's off about the transparancy of the colored spots, and the seam, well, it's kinda funny looking too, and . . . I don't know. And that's my weakness.... I know a lot of glass looks completely different when back-lit... But, I don't know enough about Guineas to be able to say that's the only problem with this... I just wanted to see if the feeling went deeper... Apparently it does. I thought it would, but I also thought it was worth the question.... I wouldn't give anybody five bucks for it myself. Ahhh... That's the way I feel about REAL Guineas!!! So.... That puts this one in the "Under $1.00 box!!! ROFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 On that guinea type marble you can see one color on top of another color in several areas. I have never seen that on a verified CAC Guinea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn691500 Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 u could prolly get that cobra he has up for 3 or 4 hundred,lol, i wouldnt trust that thief any more than i could throw him,bj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 In my opninion this is EXACTLY why forgerys absolutely DESTROY the collecting market. Marbles like this are presented as antique and sell for huge dollars - and then the origin of the damn marble is called into question and no one can be sure....(the cut line is real, the white looks right, the seller is questionable, the seller is reputable, the swirl pattern is wrong, its too shiny, its NM so its been damaged on purpose, its MINT so it must be a forgery....etc etc etc blah blah blah)no one can be sure so .... In the mean time - every marble in YOUR collection is also now questionable unless you can provide provenance. Forgers SUCK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Talking about one color on top of the other, check out this zoom. Is that a piece of frit with the blue fused to the white before it even hit the marble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Let's clean our eyes out with some good guineas. Greg posted these recently: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 All wrong in these areas IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 kool. thanks for the illus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 what proof is offered that those are "good guineas" - how do we know the box has not been backfilled with questionable purchases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 How do you know anything old is actually old???? Comparing to known examples is usually a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 How do you know anything old is actually old???? Comparing to known examples is usually a good start. exactly...so where do we get these "known" examples from to perform our comparisons? and how do we know the known comparisons are for real to begin with? Like the recent discussion we had concerning Moss Agate corkscrews - I was finally convinced throug the ad campaign photos and photos of an original box containing Moss agate corks from a highly reliable source...thats provenance - not just "comparison". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m!b$ Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I don't know how anyone could think that guinea on eBay is genuine, and I don't even have any guineas. It looks closer to a Vacor Atmosphere than a CAC Guinea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 I guess my reply would be if you can't tell the difference you probably should buy something else.(its that simple) I also think this is a completely different matter as to what name should be used for what marble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 I don't know how anyone could think that guinea on eBay is genuine, and I don't even have any guineas. It looks closer to a Vacor Atmosphere than a CAC Guinea. I agree:-) ..... I feel the same about the striped opaque:-) BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 I guess my reply would be if you can't tell the difference you probably should buy something else.(its that simple) I also think this is a completely different matter as to what name should be used for what marble. I agree :-) lol:-) I took pictures of those boxes 12 or 13 years ago and again in 2002, both times at the Columbus show and the contents were the same. When they were sold about three years ago I took pics again and the contents were still the same. Even if they were back filled longer than 13 years ago I have no doubt in my mind that they are all guineas ..... in the boxes that is .LOL Here's pics of an an 11/16" single seam amber guinea under a two flash set up and backlit with a single flash. I realize it's apples and oranges in terms of clear vs. amber ...... but not the colors of the spots in general:-) BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I LOVE MARBLES Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 I guess my reply would be if you can't tell the difference you probably should buy something else.(its that simple) I also think this is a completely different matter as to what name should be used for what marble. This is the best reply of all posible. i will only add; will it be a waist of our time to inform ebay of this obvious criminal? Thanks Bill for showing us the real Guinea and agree with you & Galen whole heartedly on this topic. i don't need no stinking provenance, to tell me just what the real deal is!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn691500 Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 i will only add; will it be a waist of our time to inform ebay of this obvious criminal? YES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marblemansion Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 I agree :-) lol:-) I took pictures of those boxes 12 or 13 years ago and again in 2002, both times at the Columbus show and the contents were the same. When they were sold about three years ago I took pics again and the contents were still the same. Even if they were back filled longer than 13 years ago I have no doubt in my mind that they are all guineas ..... in the boxes that is .LOL Here's pics of an an 11/16" single seam amber guinea under a two flash set up and backlit with a single flash. I realize it's apples and oranges in terms of clear vs. amber ...... but not the colors of the spots in general:-) BT BUT That IS provenance. Having photos of the same box from 12 years ago is showing history, and the previous owner may have even more history to provide further provenance. The further back in history the box goes, the less likely it was forged or backfilled because 30 years ago only few cared much about a box of Guineas and it has taken the forgers a few years and some technology to gain the ability and realize the value of forging a rare marble for price. Myself - there is no way I would buy a Guinea or pay over $100 bucks for any marble in todays market without knowing what I am buying because the forgers have become too good at what they do. Way too many handmade cane cut pontils out there - they are still being made today, way too many sulphides, way too many.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Forgers SUCK! I think we can all agree on that... But.... In my opninion this is EXACTLY why forgerys absolutely DESTROY the collecting market. Marbles like this are presented as antique and sell for huge dollars - and then the origin of the damn marble is called into question and no one can be sure....(the cut line is real, the white looks right, the seller is questionable, the seller is reputable, the swirl pattern is wrong, its too shiny, its NM so its been damaged on purpose, its MINT so it must be a forgery....etc etc etc blah blah blah)no one can be sure so ....In the mean time - every marble in YOUR collection is also now questionable unless you can provide provenance. Forgers have been around in every single aspect of business where there's money involved... I don't know of a single one that they have destroyed, yet... Anyone who collects is expected to know what they are buying and keep up on what's going on in that field. If keeping up is too difficult, then Galen's advice is the plain and only answer. No one said it was easy!!! PS... Thanks Galen, Bill & all others who commented on the Guinea... I also felt it was not correct (REALLY!!! I'm not just saying that!!! LOL) But, I wanted to hear the detailed reasons why, by people who really knew.... Cuz, I didn't.... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 If its old and valuable it is probably going to be copied. And I think Forger is the wrong term to use for someone that makes copies with no intent to pass them as the real deal. I happen to own and enjoy many CAC mimics. Blaming the makers helps remove the blame from the real criminals that pass fakes as originals. How many thousands of paintings are copied every year?? how many copies of old furniture are made every Year. They are even making exact copies of tin toys marble toyAre all these craftsmen, artists and companies Forgers? Not IMO. IMO Its nice to have these copies for the folks that can't afford the real deal. As I said earlier if you can't tell the difference buy something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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