wvrons Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 You say Dave identified your white base green and oxblood as Champion. But when i say he identifdied the other marble as Champion and not Ravenswood. That is not good enough. Are Daves identifications all 100% ? Of course not,no ones are 100% if they do any amounts. You have proved my point,when minds are made up,sometimes nothing will change it. Yes EVERYBODY needs to remain open minded. What i deem as oxblood today is what many people right here argued with me for years as what oxblood was to them. Now years later there are several different types,colors,etc. Plus done by most of or all the WV swirl companies. I will be watching for a Ravenswood with oxblood,just like i have for 15 years. If you find it i would like to know and why it is Ravenswood. Did Jabo make or have oxblood in their marbles ? I would like to make sure that i have that correct. Glad that i now know there is a much wider range for oxblood. I can change my thoughts on this today. I may print this so i can refer people to it for oxblood questions. I now have a lot of WV swirls with oxblood. AGAIN no one is going to get every identifictaion correct,including Dave and or myself. They are your marbles call them what ever you like. Why ask a opinion for a identification if you already know and your mind is set on what it is. All this for a $5.00 to $15.00 marble or marbles in question. This is crazy ! Why would anyone want to talk about WV swirls at any gathering ? Everyone already knows all about them,it is in the books. It is always the same here,it will never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 What does it take to get it across that i have never wrote a book and why. I did not write,print or publish every word or picture in Everetts books or Popular American Marbles or American Machine Made Marbles. I may not agree with every single word or picture in them. But they are better than what was before them. Maybe it was Al or others on the long list who helped with American Machine marbles that stated the facts on page 77 ? But it was not me. Go ask those others on the list ! I am not about to put it in print that Heaton,Cairo and Ravenswood had oxblood in their marbles. Been there done that on chat boards and got the wrath for that. If you know they did,post the pictures here. Of course the bottom line for me is what i see as oxblood. I see some that i might consider for myself as oxblood. But i may not put it in print. Because i did not know there was a accepted guide for any or all oxblood with marbles. I was not aware that all other collectors had the same exact opinon what was deemed as oxblood. Maybe one of you should do the book on this ? Yes as usual here,things got way off the original topic. Maybe the original marble at the start of this is a duck. If someone wants to think it is Heaton,fine. Just show me another Heaton with the same swirl traits as that one. I don't think it walks like a duck,just because the colors may look like another duck. But thats just my opinion. I look at more than just colors for a identification. Show me a Heaton where the ends of the color swirl,stripe,ribbon,are straight across. As I said i can change just show me and change quick with good numbers of it. I can show you a few hundred Heatons dug at the site,and in original mesh and plastic bags. I have not seen the end of the swirls on Heatons that i have,look like the one on ebay at the begining of this. Somday maybe but not today will you convice me that i should not base part of my identifications on items that have been excavated. Where would a large range of marbles be today ? How many hundred have been identified because of where they were dug ? History from the ground has not always come from scienctifically excavations. Wen i do not have actual proof or hard facts. I have to go with the percentages. With all the Ravenswood marbles that has been through my fingers. I have seen them at the river bank,inside the factory,past employees,the familys collections,original packages,local cemetary. I have never seen that marble at river bank or any of the above. I am sure that i have not seen each and every combination that Ravenswood ever made. I have to go with what i have witnessed and the percentages. But i usually base it on more than because a couple marble people said it was such. Again as i said before i learned early that much of what i was told and led to believe was not all accurate. With what my eyes saw,what people with direct connections to the factory told me,it was different. Why would i post a primer on how to seperate WV swirls. If it was possible ? What would happen ? Same as above ? I retired,i don't need a full time job,tying to explain my marble expierences. Why should i try to change peoples thoughts ? That can be a major challenge. I cannot teach people to seperate WV swirls in words alone. That is impossible. They have to be in hand with lots and lots of time and a true determination to figure them out. No one will or can seperate all WV swirls. That also is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 . . . i did not know there was a accepted guide for any or all oxblood with marbles. I was not aware that all other collectors had the same exact opinon what was deemed as oxblood. Maybe one of you should do the book on this ? Yes as usual here,things got way off the original topic. Maybe the original marble at the start of this is a duck. If someone wants to think it is Heaton,fine. Just show me another Heaton with the same swirl traits as that one. I don't think it walks like a duck,just because the colors may look like another duck. But thats just my opinion. I look at more than just colors for a identification. Show me a Heaton where the ends of the color swirl,stripe,ribbon,are straight across. . . . I'm a little confused. I don't know that anybody here is arguing that the original marble at the start of this thread is Heaton. Maybe I missed that. The best I can make out, the discussion, such as it was, was about whether or not Heaton made marbles with oxblood, either accidentally or deliberately -- although I don't know who can read the minds of the Heaton glassmakers at this point in time. Not me, anyway. And at the risk of being egged, I should also point out that several people have written very knowledgeably about oxblood (including Brian Graham, who makes it, and Steve Sturtz, in one of his JABO books, with pretty good photographs). And I understand that opinions are opinions, but you can't really argue with chemistry. I have the MFC formulas for oxblood if anyone wants them. And are Dave's IDs 100% correct? And are yours? Of course not. But Ron, honestly, Dave made the marbles at Champion. Would I take his opinion over yours in this case? Well, yes. I wish there were less talk about how lousy marble books are and more talk about producing a good one. But nearly all of them have something to offer the student. And they are available. Individual, knowledgable people who don't publish their work are not so available. So the rest of us peons out here just have to do the best we can with what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 it is just a 2 dollar West Virginia swirl if you ask me(LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 So you'll send all you find that are like it to me, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Sure will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Deal! OMG. Me and Galen have struck a deal. Wait, wait . . . ah, what the hell. Deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 A deal is a deal, heck Ann, don't be so surprised. I once sold someone that cared for me even less than you do, a nice Blue Galaxy for $500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNYD Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 First and foremost.........all of my comments or suggestions are my opinion and I try to post this in all my posts. Okay that out of the way. I have been trying to study and learn WV swirls for many years now, to the point I sometimes think I should have never started. My problem, I listened to people who maybe really did not have true facts of what type of marble was being discussed. I believed so many people back then. I then met some great folks in Sistersville, W. Many years of knowledge and some contacts to help get artifacts ( if you know what I mean), this helped out greatly. Then I got to do another history dig later, then different companies. It started to make sense. Then a few years ago I met Ron, Nola and of course who could forget "Wild BiIl". SInce becoming friends with them I have had the chance to again get my hands on some artifacts that in hand register in my brain. So you all know, I have never thrown any artifacts away unless they were doubles, no matter the shape. I have a collect most people would laugh at. It is full of broken mibs, half mibs, quarters of mibs, but I know where they came from and who made them sure as rain. Then it happened....I have many mibs that are so damn similar that are in the three collects, ALLEY, CAIRO, CHAMPION. Now I can tell you that the Champions, for some reason like Ron stated, I can pick them out instantly because of the shine and almost irredescent look of the glass. Anyhow, I remeber when I first went to Ron's house, it is a museum for marbles. I am not sure he minds me saying this, but....he has the largest pile of artifacts I have ever seen. He knows where they are from, what exact location at the site, old pictures to reseach and set his dig, houyrs and hours of talking with the old people, even people who worked at the marble plants. His hands have been on so many mibs that it is not funny. Okay the point...........anytime, everytime, I have talked with him, his comments have been supported by "facts" and sometimes actual samples and the history of the when, where and how deep. Is Ron the smartest guy in the world, no, who is????? Is he the best fact based person to have knowledge from the facts as they lie in the earth and in the history of talking to people who were there, NONE MORE QUALIFIED! Now you may think I am saying this because I am friends with Ron, well that too, but he has proven himself in so many ways. His love for the art of collecting and the true history is what drives him, not the money of the hobby. Hell, if that was the case I would owe him thousands of dollars and so would many others. You have to understand, he is different in the way that it is not the money at all, it's having the facts and having the history to support what is the truth. He would rather throw a million dollars away than to mislead anyone. He respects the marbles and their history, so many others worry they will miss out on a couple of bucks because of the mib not being what they think it is. This past year at Canton I found a mib that the seller said was a CAC. I thought it was Alley. I asked ron to look at it, he agreed it was Alley. The guy picked up the mib and said well you liked it and it $75, since it is Alley would you give me $30. Why if it is worth a certain amount as CAC it is not worth it as ALLEY? Yes, I took it.......So sad the facts cost him money, but if I wanted it would I have paid $75........even as an Alley......you bet. Books, I will not even go there, Ron covered how that all happens and how they are never they way the should be, and it is not the author that is the ass........... SNYD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Well. I'm not sure exactly when this thread went astray. Nothing said in posts #1 - #14 was an attack on Ron. But by the middle of post #15, Ron seems to have misconstrued and then taken offense at something I said. That's OK, as SNYD points out, because these things are really just opinions, anyway, but I do dislike being misconstrued. After that, frankly, it was Ron who was on the attack, both directly and indirectly, and at considerable length. I'm sorry Ron has come to this point, but that's about all I can say. Except that I don't see any need to continue this as a pro- or anti-Ron thread. I think we should be done here. Or not. That's (rightly) up to the rest of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Any person publicly writes or publishes anything not expecting some or even many folks to not like it or disagree isn't living in the real world. It is sad so many folks have disappeared, stopped posting, or giving their advice or opinions about our great hobby because others disagree with their opinions. Heck lots of folks even take someone disagreeing with their opinion about things as a personal attack. Sad, very sad, in my opinion. Rudeness is another subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffy Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 really????...did I just read that???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 And a perfect example of rudeness, Thank you Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I like to enjoy what time i can have for marble chat boards. Not watch or be part of long drawn out arguements,opinions as some say,squabble zones. As some say over a $2.00 marble,that can and always does cause opinions or arguements to spring about for some. Long drawn out explaintions for every single opinion,thoughts or reasons have to be explained in detail. Which usually just extends or brings about more differences. But some opinions always get questioned in length and finger pointing why they are wrong or right. Most opinions usually never change in the end. Is it worth it,for a $2.00 marble ? Did anyone really learn or gain anything ? You wonder why many folks have and are more and more disappearing,stopped posting,give opinions,expierence or advice ? It is right here in front of everyone,and by no single one person. It is correct publish,print or type and some people will always not like it or disagree. If it is only one thing incorrect in the entire book at the time of reading it. It will be slammed over and over. But does every single correct thing done get the same attention ? So why would anyone want to do a book,publish,print or type anything ? I admire the ones who have done so. They have also all caught the wrath of many. More than one marble book author,publisher has told me"it was not worth it". Some have said,never again. Wonder why,it is right in front of us. When will one of you be doing a marble book,you have the answers ? Humans are each one different and can take printed words with many different meanings, Many hidden between the words and lines,the jabs are thrown and taken,correct ot not. Many times personal opinions are better off staying out of print. There is more than enough negative already. One negative can make a lot of positives disappear. It only takes one. It is simple,honey draws better than vinegar. I agree 100% sad very sad in my opinion. I also agree no need to continue. I also agree we should be done here. I can also disappear,i do not want to attack anyone or be attacked. Wonder why more and more are disappearing. I won't be around to help it out. Done Bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Ron I value your opinions very much. always have. We may disagree on a few subjects but that has no bearing on how I feel about you. Heck I appreciate the jabos you sent that showed the progression through a run. ( still have them and value them,I Appreciate the time you have spent with me at the Canton shows. As a matter of fact I still have every Jabo you ever sent me. I enjoyed the time at Jabo with the crazy attempt at corkscrews. I wish you would post 10 times more than you do. And please do not stop. There are many newbies and even oldies that can learn from your postings. So what if some disagree!!!!!!!! Heck I would of had to quit posting 15 years ago if I couldnt stand people disagreeing with me. Of course I have had to put up with a lot more than just disagreements. Hey Duffy whats up(LOL) You all liking the Bacon? I left in Canton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m!b$ Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I asked about this marble a long time ago on this forum and I thought I understood that it was a Ravenswood Oxblood, but if there are none of those, then it must be an Alley Ox, right? It is 21/32" and not out of round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sissydear Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 that marble is Alley Agate, mib$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Sure is. And since you've had it a while, m!b$, you might as well just send it to me . . . you must be tired of it by now. Here's the only one of mine I have pics of (maybe from Zaboo? Don't remember) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'llhavethat1 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I asked about this marble a long time ago on this forum and I thought I understood that it was a Ravenswood Oxblood, but if there are none of those, then it must be an Alley Ox, right? It is 21/32" and not out of round. AlleyOx.jpg Does the top left pic show a distinctive feature (the 'tongue') or is it something else that points towards Alley? On a side note - it's incredible that so much useful info can end up in an unassuming topic where most wouldn't think to look for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Colors and construction say Alley to me. Not really the end of stream tongue that is sometimes mentioned with CACs and the occasional Champion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 Colors and construction say Alley to me. Not really the end of stream tongue that is sometimes mentioned with CACs and the occasional Champion Agree -- reminds me more of the beginning of a "drizzle" that's occasionally seen on Alleys. Some are pretty spectacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richsantaclaus Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I can't believe what I am reading..... Ann and Galen agreeing???? wow...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 I know. I had to go and lay down afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 If you just realized I am always correct it wouldn't be so hard on you (LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'llhavethat1 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Lol, I hope the statement "I Have Joined Galen" isn't like a precursor to purple kool-aid or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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