hdesousa

Winnie, I notice you hesitate to say where you think these short and long line pontil marbles are made. :-) I hope some day we can figure that out. My marbles which come from boxes marked made in Japan have spidery pontils just as yours do. Here are a few pics of the boxes and marbles. On the other hand, these marbles that are primarily found in Canada, and the marbles in this 100 count box have the line pontils (short and long) like your red/white marbles above. Wish the makers labeled their boxes.

Thanks Winnie. We'll get to the bottom of this eventually, I hope. Have you seen any red/white 'transitionals' in a box marked "Made in Japan"? This is your picture: What do the pontils look like?

What makes you think anything other than what Roger Browse calls pinch pontils, are Japanese? Risking repetition ad nauseam, This is what Roger says here: http://members.kingston.net/browse/transpics/trans2.html "The “pinch pontil” (column 1) is the most distinctive type, and they are the type (and only type) found in boxes marked “MADE IN JAPAN”. There are no clues to the origins of the other types...."

Yes, but I don't know the time period nor its name. Maybe you can tell me?

My Reptilian Agates.

I don't understand what you mean, Ann. If you come across an old group of marbles, and assuming nothing has been added to them (which I know, is a big assumption), can you not reliably assume that no marble is younger than the youngest identifiable marble? For example, I was asking here about these red and white marbles: http://marbleconnection.com/topic/18714-odd-akros/?hl=akros And Scott says, in post #4, that "in a recent purchase of akro marbles, quite a few of these marble were present, i didnt think much about it until this post?????" If the youngest marbles Scott found in his group of marbles were from the 1930's, (and I don't know that as a fact), can we not assume my red and white marbles are from the 1930's?

Privy diggers often date their items based on other items of known age found at the same level. Although not authoritative either, can we not infer the age of some marbles based on other marbles they are found with? Here is an interesting group of marbles. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Estate-Lot-65-Marbles-German-Swirl-Slag-Bennington-Hand-Made-Mica-Brick-Antique-/191542164277 I'm trying to date a couple examples of those red/white marbles which we've been discussing on this board. The seller assures me no marbles were added to the find, and the only marbles removed were some run of the mill slags and clays, and "less old-looking corkscrews", which I presume may have been 'transition' type marbles. Assuming this is true, can we say all the marbles here are pre-1930? Winnie, is that purple/white marble in the upper right an European swirl? Do you know when they were first made? Does anyone know when Japanese 'transitions' were first made?

Here are a couple of pics of what Danny Turner of Running Rabbit originally called CAC exotics. - Sorry, pics are not the best. I acquired most these in the mid 1990's. The two larger yellow/orange/green transparent marbles in the middle of the picture are pictured in Castle and Peterson's book on machine made marbles. 1st edition (1992), pg.35, "Killer Multicolored Swirls", Row 3, line A&B, described as Christensen Agate, price range $40-$60. In the second (1995) edition pg. 35,Christensen Agate Palette, Row 3, A&B, they are called 'Electric' multicolored swirls, $200- $600 The 'newer' exotics looked sufficiently different to me when they first came out that I did not buy any. Perhaps they "got better" over the years. One picture illustrating many of these early 'exotics' is in Grist's Big Book of Marbles, in each of the first three editions, under the Christensen Agate section.

What John said in post #68: "Here is what I know as fact: 1) The laws of physics haven't changed for the last 100 years. Marble King or Jabo have to work with the universe today just like MFC and CA did years ago. Therefore, what was done then, can be done now. <snip>" John should have included the laws of chemistry with that statement. Collectible glass has been faked for centuries - from ancient beads to historic US flasks and everything else. Detecting good forgeries is a science; marble collectors should educate themselves. Here's a start: http://www.italian-glass.net/articles004.html http://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/forgery

When did Sellers Peltier visit Japan? In the 50's? These "mystery marbles", when found in the wild in Canada, are usually found with MFC marbles. We would definitely be aware of any Canadian marble company operating in the 1950's. The Canadian collectors I know were alive then. None of them have heard of a factory producing marbles in Canada. Peltier's note is probably a red herring.

The (unquestioningly genuine and very expensive) CA exotics Danny Turner was selling in the Running Rabbit auctions are the same marbles illustrated in Grist's books in 1992-3 and Castle and Peterson's book in 1992 and 1995. I wonder if collectors who owned some of these marbles bought into the new exotics, as there is a marked difference between them, more apparent when compared side by side. The older exotics still bring good money when they show up for sale, as a few did at a Morphy's auction a year or two ago.

Thanks for the details. No insult intended. Just trying to verify a very important fact before it's cut in stone. Consider it healthy skepticism.

Galen, I started this thread, so would like to keep it more factual than mythical. I've asked people who've gone thru the documents in the Peltier office safe, as well as those who have gone thru the lockers that contained a Uhaul's worth of Peltier documents, and no one has any recollection of seeing a note about a Canadian marble manufacturer. Where did you see the note you're referring to?

They are few and far between. I had one about 20 years ago. A collector offered me $200. I thought he had more $$ than sense, a fool-and-his-money, etc.etc and sold it. My mistake. Never seen another since, and I've been looking.

Galen, You said, in post #18, "the best and only evidence I have ever seen on a Canadian manufacturer is a note Sellers Peltier wrote to himself that says, Check on the Canadian manufacturer." Where did you hear of, or see, that note that Sellers Peltier wrote to himself? Hansel

As Steph says, ???!!! ??? !!! ??? !!!!!

The description below, by Roger Browse and supplied by Winnie in a previous posting, gives a through description of various pontils: pinch, crease, line, pin and regular. The marbles in the box in the first post in this topic have crease pontils. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Transitional Cutoffs Here is my understanding of the different types of pontils (cutoff marks) that are found on opaque-white/red transitionals. I have included five distinct types. There are other types of transitionals, such as “melted pontil”, and “ground-pontil” which, as I understand it, do not appear in the opaque-white/red version, and so they are excluded from this categorization. Just to keep it simple, I’m not going to say too much about location of origin, date, and possible connections among these marbles. This is primarily about visual distinctions among the different types, as I believe that is essential in understanding and categorizing marbles. The following table of images has 5 columns. Each column depicts a different type, as labeled, and each has six examples. (I hope this sizes properly for your screen properties) CLICK ON ANY IMAGE BELOW TO SEE A 4-VIEW VERSION PINCH Curved with messy spidering CREASE Long, straight, thin, ends curved LINE short,straight indented PIN pin-head size indentation REGULAR snipped offlike handmades (marble pics below did not stay in their respective columns when copied. Go to the link provided) The table of images emphasizes the nature of the pontil (or cutoff mark), but with the help of the larger images, you probably can infer some of the surface pattern characteristics which also (usually) distinguish these different types. Each of these 5 types has a distinct set of color combinations and sizes in which they are found. Beyond the color, there is also clear variation (with overlap) in the nature of the glass used. These additional differences strongly suggest that each of these types of marbles was made by a different maufacturer, or at a distinctly different period if by the same manufacturer. There are many hybrid variations of these marbles, which I have not included. The images in the table were selected for their ability to portray the cutoff mark (pontil), and I tried to use intersting examples. The marbles in the images range in size from 9/16” to 1.25” diameter, and are scaled for better comparison. The “pinch pontil” (column 1) is the most distinctive type, and they are the type (and only type) found in boxes marked “MADE IN JAPAN”. There are no clues to the origins of the other types other than “line-pontils” have been found as complete early Solitaire Sets from Britain. All the two-color (non-white) opaque ones that I have seen are “crease-pontils”. The marbles found along with each type of transitional suggest that “pinch-pontils” were as late as the 1950’s, but the other four types are considerably earlier. Both “pinch-pontils” and “crease-pontils” appear to have been also produced in machine-made patch versions. http://members.kingston.net/browse/transpics/trans2.html

Agreed. Marbles from packaging which is marked "Made in Japan" are very different. These marbles have pontils which resemble the marbles in this post. http://marbleconnection.com/topic/18714-odd-akros/ Bob, what is the reason you say "I'm pretty sure these are all made in Japan"? (post #12 above)

Yes to "smooth cutoffs with some having tiny straight indentations".

The box in post # 118 has marbles that are quite different from the Japanese marbles with no consistent pontils that Winnie has described. These pontils are almost all a 3 to 4 mm straight indented groove.

I would say pre-war, but then you would correctly ask which war? All I know is that those are hand made black marbles, so I would guess pre WW1

This flyer is so rare, it doesn't really exist. It was photo-shopped from the back of a notice to employees found in the factory, dated 1938, well past the heyday of picture comics. Collectors should appreciate those hard times factory employees went through. ----If the glass is not yet ready, go home ---

Interesting dates and addresses. The second ad was from December 1931, after Gropper and Peltier had split up. However, their Eastern Sales Office was still at the same Gropper NY address, with the same sales manager,James O'Brien but in the name of the Peltier Glass Company.