Marble Heresy For Bill's Enjoyment

[Steph]

Bill, about your cork here:

I think that some collectors might i.d. it as a Ringer. This is SUCH a controversial i.d. but I'm starting to buy it. It fits for a number of reasons. For one, translucent mibs seem to appear so often in Ringer Marble Sets such as Lloyd's here. Are they all backfilled?

(click to enlarge)

. .

For another reason, it seems really hard to find examples of "true" ringers (by the traditional definition). Why aren't there more in circulation?

Of course there are still dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of collectors who will stand by the traditional definition.

One of the very few "traditional" ones I've ever seen even in a photo (from ebay):

[Steph]

oh man oh man. Dani's gonna murderize me.

[bubba1]

sooooo.....i've always wondered about this one..??? ringer??

(1st pic with flash, 2nd w/out)

[moremarbles4me]

To me a ringer has a clear base, wispy white and one other color. It's kind of like a short changed popeye.

Charles

[ann]

I don't really know what the traditional definition of a Ringer is, but I've assumed (and we all know how mistaken that can be!) that it was -- more-or-less -- a one-color Popeye. Like the yellow in clear with wispy white you show there, Steph. Is that what you mean by the traditional def?

And if so, would an extra little streak of white (opaque, or opalescent) necessarily disqualify it as a Ringer? As long as no other color was added?

Oh dear.

Abomilnal . . . abonm . . . you're right.

[Steph]

Yup, Ann. The "traditional" one is what you and Charles said. Short-changed Popeye. Clear base, wispy white, one color. Popeye-Lite.

But did Akro make those on purpose? I wanna see more pix of them. LOL. It's been so hard to find any "true", "traditional" ones, that this alone might cause suspicion about them being a regular item to put in the Ringer Marble Sets. The subject comes up with some frequency. Someone asks, "Is this a ringer?" The typical answer is "no". The standard verbal description is given for them. But then it's rare that anyone can come up with a pic of a "real" one. Why are they so hard to find?

Bubba, I'd be tempted to call yours a ringer, by my new understanding. I'd feel safer calling it a moss agate since that is my best guess for what Akro woulda called it. But it does look like the style which often seems to come in ringer boxes.

It's a most excellent marble, no matter what. It's too bad it doesn't have a really good name. A name we could all agree on (lol), and then get past, so that we would be free to ooh and aah the mib.

[lstmmrbls]

I agree those are the most common types found in the boxes I but wouldn't even take on this try for a name change.(LOL)

[Steph]

hehe. you have a point.

[marblemansion]

Steph - I already surrendered - remember?

But in response to your Ringer concept - the marble I have is through and through a translucent base - and has not even a hint of any clear glass showing.

[FIRE81]

So....a REALLY REALLY SPECIAL SPIRAL....would be a Pop-Eye ?

And a REALLY REALLY REALLY SPECIAL SPIRAL....would be a Pop-Eye HYBRID !

Hope I'm "ONE" in the THOUSANDS !!!

[Steph]

But in response to your Ringer concept - the marble I have is through and through a translucent base - and has not even a hint of any clear glass showing.

Not sure why you bring up the lack of clear. Was that because Ringers are said to have clear?

If you go with the traditional collectors' description of Ringers then yours would not be one. Whether it had clear or not. The translucent base would sink you.

If your mind is open about the moss agate option, then clear is not an integral part of the marble, as far as I understand. Yes it shows up a lot in the swirly ones but I don't think it's a requirement.

But if I'm wrong altogether about your cork even being related to the swirly mosses then nevermind. I have to go back to my cave and regroup. LOLOL

[marblemansion]

Well - to me a Ringer is a one color Popeye (clear white + one color with a Popeye being clear + white + 2 colors) and to me a Moss Agate is a translucent base (no clear) with a patch of opaque color.....it would follow that a Moss Agate swirl would have a translucent base (no clear) with the opaque color corking around it but ...to my understanding the Moss Agate cork has yet to be positively defined - the box you showed does not conform to any traditional form of a Moss Agate that is known since they apparently have clear glass, and it is not known if the box was backfilled or no...so basing a positive ID on any marble from that would be tenative at best.

I can understand the desire to maintain a tight definition of a an "Ace" as being opalescent with a thin line of color and only firing when back lit and having the stirations in the glass et al... but then where is the same desire to maintain just as tight definitions on Ringers, Moss Agate Swirls(??), Snakes, Onyx and the rest???

....because a marble such as mine surely was made by Akro - and as such can only fall into a limited number of potential categories - (those known to have a translucent base and having 2 opaque colors in a cork pattern).

[Steph]

The Ringer is a collectors' name, not an Akro name. It is supposedly based on what has been found in Ringer Marble Set boxes. My mention of it today was a platform to discuss what is actually found in those boxes.

I don't use the term Snake. It is not an Akro name as far as I know.

The term Onyx is an Akro name, and I use it appropriately, as far as I know.

I give up talking about the clear glass. I don't agree with what you think would "follow". Sorry you don't think I'm being consistent enough. I've already admitted to picking and choosing what to take with me from different descriptions. However, I happen to believe I choose intelligently, taking a large body of information into consideration. Some people have more information than I do but I have a lot. I have no reason to doubt that the swirly moss agate box is filled correctly. I would have to throw out a lot of evidence if I restricted conclusions about swirly/corky moss agates to what I see in a patch box.

Akro's ad writers were not looking at plain patches when they described Moss Agates as "... the most beautiful marble Akro Agate has ever produced. Highest quality moonstone glass, soft pastel colors contrasted with more vivid hues in exquisite patterns - pale green with maroon, cream with deep blue, etc. ..."

No hard feelings. I just believe it would be walking backward to toss out the information that box gives us.

[spara50]

This is a set of ringers I had at one time. They were all 9/16" and came together in a group. Notice the clear, wispy white and one color in most of them. I always believed ringers to be popeye style marbles with one color instead of two. These are true traditional ones IMO and VERY hard to find.

(ignore the file names, I called them aces years ago when I found them, but quickly learned they were ringers)

Craig

[Steph]

Those ringers are beauts!

I don't see popeye-lites though. I see MORE. I see translucent glass in addition to the clear and wispy white. When people in the past have posted mibs and asked "is this a ringer?", I've said "no" because I saw the translucent glass. Now I think the translucent glass belongs.

Gorgeous examples, Craig. Thanks for sharing.

[ann]

I see translucent glass in addition to the clear and wispy white. When people in the past have posted mibs and asked "is this a ringer?", I've said "no" because I saw the translucent glass. Now I think the translucent glass belongs.

Hard for me to tell from the photos whether some of the mibs also have translucent white glass (with the wispy white and clear), or whether they just have dense areas of wispy white (as in some Popeyes) that might look translucent in photos . . .

Nice, whatever the heck they are.

[lstmmrbls]

I do not see the clear. I am not syaing they are not ringers. Just that a one color popeye is not a good description IMO.

[1DanS]

Interesting discussion.

So this one would be a...................?

thanks.

[lstmmrbls]

I believe these are 3 Ringers like Craigs and the ones in some Ringer boxes. There is no clear and the base is actually slightly opalescent which is easy to see when backlighted. No way are they Aces IMO.

[Steph]

Yah, that green looks different from Ace green. (to me) [edit: Aw heck, I'm stepping out of my depth. I admit I haven't see enough of these to have that good of a feel for how the light should react. I'll leave my original post below, but feel free to disregard.]

Galen, can you get a sense of where the opalescence seems to emanate from?

Is it the milky area? The wispy area? Or maybe the interplay of the two?

If I ever got to see the original swirly moss packaging in person I would want to check out how the light played in the glass. I've long wondered whether it was the grain itself in the Realer and the striation itself in the Aces, which caused the opalescence. It has seemed to me that the fire in the least wispy Realers is concentrated in the few wispy areas. Also, I've had some non-Akro game mibs with great fire which I also thought came from some filamentation. But I don't yet know how to confirm.

I think I need a physics major or a glass maker here to consult with. :-)

[marblemansion]

Steph - first let me say that I envy the time you can spend researching and therefore I sincerely value your findings and I love to be wrong. I think trying to discover what the actual names and intended patterns were from any company, not just Akro - is rewarding glimpse into history. I have discovered that over the years collectors have developed names and grouped marbles into categories as they fit what was original boxed sets...also over the years many many empty boxes have been found and back filled with whatever the collector desired and these have been passed on as originals...so getting into name picking on the basis of what is in a box is tenative at best. What is better is the known salesman sample boxes that have come directly from the factories or unopened bags - or picture advertising-- all untarnished ---- there you have the best shot at discovering the companies orignal conceptual names they placed on the pattern.

So with that as a primer, along with a heavy dose of I really enjoy you, like your threads, and the reassurance that I don't think what you are saying is wrong or upsetting me....I will respond. ( I say all of this because I challenged another moderator on a different forum (who frequents this forum from time to time (may they live long and prosper)) and got the crap kicked outta me and bannished for ever for having a very similar discussion )

The Ringer is a collectors' name, not an Akro name. It is supposedly based on what has been found in Ringer Marble Set boxes. My mention of it today was a platform to discuss what is actually found in those boxes.

I don't use the term Snake. It is not an Akro name as far as I know.

The term Onyx is an Akro name, and I use it appropriately, as far as I know.

Yep Yep and Yep.

I give up talking about the clear glass. I don't agree with what you think would "follow". Sorry you don't think I'm being consistent enough. I've already admitted to picking and choosing what to take with me from different descriptions. However, I happen to believe I choose intelligently, taking a large body of information into consideration. Some people have more information than I do but I have a lot. I have no reason to doubt that the swirly moss agate box is filled correctly. I would have to throw out a lot of evidence if I restricted conclusions about swirly/corky moss agates to what I see in a patch box.

Okay - but when grasping at this "large body" of information, there are multiple examples of known Akro patterns that have been named and that already fit into a well described patterns which you are tossing out into a heap of the unknown....and without any solid evidence to back it up.

Akro's ad writers were not looking at plain patches when they described Moss Agates as "... the most beautiful marble Akro Agate has ever produced. Highest quality moonstone glass, soft pastel colors contrasted with more vivid hues in exquisite patterns - pale green with maroon, cream with deep blue, etc. ..."

You keep mentioning this ad and I keep asking where I can see it or where if it was already posted somewhere...the ads posted in the other thread do not contain such a description....but I want to see this ad so you can bend my mind around this concept of yours. ....AHHH never mind I foudn the ads on the other thread - I posted my reply to you there.

No hard feelings. I just believe it would be walking backward to toss out the information that box gives us.

I already explained why I think boxes give us tenative information at best and cannot be relied upon for changing what is already established.

[FIRE81]

ACED !

[marblemansion]

LOL

You haven't been keeping up - thats a

RINGERSPECIALSPIRALMOSSYCORKSCREW

[ann]

RINGERSPECIALSPIRALMOSSYCORKSCREW

I'm good with that!

[marblemansion]

Okay - I have been doing some further research. I got out all of my books

Galen asked if I thought Hansel had backfilled all of his boxes - and I would say no. There are a few collectors that I trust because they have performed research either at the factory site and have collected literature, boxes, advertising and interviewed employees from the time to get a very accurate historical perspective. Most of the boxes displayed by these owners are nearly MINT and have been kept that way from the factory....which is why I trust them.

That said - Roger and Claudia Hardy's book entitled the Complete Line of The Akro Agate Company has a photo on page 34 that is a box of Moss Agates that contains marbles with a translucent base and what looks like one or two colored swirls....so that kinda seals the deal.

My marble would fit right into that box - a red and white swirl with a translucent base. So Moss Agate corks and swirls are very much possible - I am convinced.