Peltier Citrus

[mon]

The last marble show that I attended, these were just starting to surface(many a year ago). People, dressed in long cloaks, sneaking in late at night and going behind locked doors and selling 100's to a chosen few. I had never seen such beauty and all were mint++++. One of many stories was that someone in Harlem had the entire run stored in buckets behind a secret door. Are these real, old marbles? Has anyone ever dug this cullet at the old factory?

thank you in advance,

mon

[david Chamberlain]

What?

[wvrons]

????????????????????????

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Big akro oxblood dig from late 90's,that showed up at new philly?

Exotics at the lenox inn?

Pictures?

[david Chamberlain]

Conspiracy Theories.....David

[MARBLEMISER]

These marbles came into play via Smitty.

AKA Steve Smith VP Buckeye Marble Club.

Maybe a few others?

Enter a search on this board to get the scoop?

marblemiser

[moremarbles4me]

I found a small group of them in the wild so I'm sure they are the real deal.

Charkes

[david Chamberlain]

When you plug in Peltier Citrus for a Search you get 200 results with this thread here as the latest. Could you be a little more specific? David

[migbar]

Monsewer,

Obviously, you are wackers, or pulling our leg parts.

I have no idea what you're talking about, and I probably wasn't even there when it happened,

but some citrus marbles and chunky bits were found around the Peltier factory.

mike b.

[david Chamberlain]

And 'wonkers' as well! These Citrus Marbles have been in play for a long time and are well established as legit. David

[mon]

Ok, forgive me for my limited marble knowledge was frozen in 2006. I hadn't even looked at a marble let alone the boards. 1st let me state that I blame no one for my decision to buy some CAC exotics. It seemed, at the time, a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy some of the rarest CAC's. I trusted the top CAC collectors, at the front line, would never accept a fraud of this magnitude. These "finders" weren't hunting me down to sell to! Even if I wanted to, I could never get behind the curtain to question anything for myself.

I recently searched to find what's the current feelings on the CAC "exotics". I found a thread started by David Chamberlain I think in 09. Nothing seemed to have changed! No questions answered, not one fact validated and most disturbing for me, no names. In my opinion, I wouldn't protect anyone that sold these! Why....for tax reason....they made enough money to pay the f'n tax! So not to be wacked if it's a scam....comes with the territory

But to set history straight in a hobby that tries to seek nothing but. Give up the names!

The whole time reading this thread, I thought about the Citrus marbles. The history of these, as explained to me, seemed to parallel the exotics. Don't shoot me and I may be way out in left field on my info......ok but I can't learn without asking!

When did they show up?

Are there any in the original pelt packaging or ads?

I see mig claims that cullet was found?

and some found in the wild?

[Steph]

I might remember seeing the story Mon is talking about, about the cache of previously unrecognized types found in the east. If I did, it might only have been once and it might not be on the board anymore. A couple of years worth of posts were lost during a storage crunch.

[david Chamberlain]

Honest Injun....the very last thing on earth I would care to get involved in on Christmas Day is another go-around (And that is all it ever seems to be) is the CAC Exotic Controversy.....talk about conspiracies). But with an extra effort you might have dug deeper than 2009 because this matter goes all the way back to 2001 and was discussed with some regularity at shows, on marble Boards, in marble newsletters, etc. I, where I felt it was acceptable, provided the names of numerous marble people who I either asked specifically for opinions in the matter or who flat out volunteered, some of them being Ken Fung, Brian Estepp, Les Jones, Mike Art (who incidentally was at the pipeline dig from the first shovelful on), Robert Brown, etc. Initially when personally tasked I contacted about a dozen CAC people around the country for opinions. Granted that 2009 lengthy Board dip into the matter did not name names but I had no intention of bringing any grief to the people who had opinions on the subject pro or con. For any of you who wonder what these marbles actually look like there are numerous great photos of them on the cover of Baumann's 4th Edition(2004). Paul got grief for putting them on the cover from none other than Hansel De Sousa! ....while we're naming names..... This matter has hardly been something clothed in secrecy. David

[lstmmrbls]

Alan still get some crazy prices for the exotics so there is obviously a large group of collectors that believe them to be the real deal. and I have seen some go for real money at recent shows. Although the one that sold for the most 1400 was a Carl Fisher clay ball.(just shows how a fantastic find can blind even a seasoned collector) Although I still believe the dig story to be completely made up by a small group of folks(funny how no one bothered taking any pics of the actual event) I am of the belief that they are(yes, there are some very good fakes) definitely machine made marbles possibly from CAC. A lot of folks can agree to a story for big bucks at any time and any place.

[mon]

David, as far as extra effort, I was around earlier than the 2009 thread. If you look at some of the old threads you'll find Handymon as a user name and nothing but "mon" in the reply body. Someone deleted my comments for whatever reason. I think it funny that we search out information to tie things to the distant past but fall way short in collecting facts that happen during our time at watch. We're not talking about clearies here but maybe the best machine marbles ever made. I wouldn't be happy if they turned out to be fakes but the truth for the hobby would outweigh my personal loss.

But back to my point,

I found CAC's exotics in the wild and have dug shards from the ground...............does me saying this prove anything?

These citrus marbles are not cheap so, does anyone have original packaging? I can't imagine such beauties not being heavily marketed by Peltier. How many people had them in their collection prior to 1999? How did one person receive & sit on a cache of these for over 60 years? Where's the pics? I don't know....please help me understand. mon

[david Chamberlain]

Actually the stories that were made up about the Exotics after the actual dig were far-fetched beyond any possible imagination associated with the pipeline dig. It seems that numerous fly-by-nighters who got their hand on them early-on did not consider the circumstances of the dig sufficiently enticing to hype the marbles. And in fact it was a rather dull, tedious and drawn out affair stretched out for something like ten days as is often typical of municipal operations. Of course, Carl Fisher's marbles were not the Exotics but weighted clay that would have fooled an expert.....and did! He subsequently stopped putting weights in them when it was brought to his attention what people were doing with them. I am one of those small group of people who went to considerable pains to 'investigate' the Exotics although I have never owned or sold or profited in any way from the Exotics; to that extent my stance regards them is somewhat neutral. David

[david Chamberlain]

I've only been active on the Boards for a couple years prior to that I was only associated with Pete's Board by receiving a hard copy of the Board's newsletter and contributing occasionally marble gifts for his Give-Away contests. But my marble roots run much earlier going back to 1989 including attendance at over 90 shows in at least 14 different states(I think maybe for anyone whose interested I should provide a brief bio. maybe in the Squabble Zone since it seems to be a catch-all). I don't think that lack of identification in the marble company literature or in original packaging lessens the viability of a certain marble. There are numerous marbles from various companies that have come into prominence solely because we have deem them important and not all of these have passed the test of company advertising literature or sure-fire bag IDing. Have to admit that I'm not familiar with what the story is regarding the Citrus Marbles arrival on the scene. Maybe someone could enlighten me. I do know that the first time I saw them I considered them knock down gorgeous. I believe that most of the marbles that have surfaced in the past decade are not the result of anyone having purposely sat on them for 60 years with 'investment' thoughts in mind or any thought towards profit because most people up until only a few years ago did not give much consequence to marbles. I would have to say that this view has changed considerable over the past decade. David

[lstmmrbls]

Never heard of a big find of citris types or any controversy of any type surrounding them. I have found them in the wild seen folks find them in groups at shows and seen and held some groups that had been in one mans collection for quite some time. I have seen the pieces and held them that were dug at the Peltier site.

[mon]

Amazing! Just F-N AMAZING! Here is a post by Smitty on Dec 31, 2005. I like this part: I had not seen them before and have yet to see one that did not originate from this group.

I'll try to tell the story without writing a novel. Several years ago, on ebay a seller from N.J. was offering a group of 5 unusual Peltiers, which is what I collect, if I remember it correctly, I didn't get the first group. Then they sold another group, which I won. Then they put on another group! Which I also won.I politely asked them how many groups they were going to be selling and since I was the high bidder on 2 of the groups, "how much if I bought the rest?" They sent me a list of the remaining Peltiers and a price. It wasn't cheap, in fact, there was no way I could afford it even though it was reasonable. So I turned them over to a well known collector friend of mine who lives in Eastern PA (H.D.) and he drove over and purchased them.

The seller explained that they were all in one large jar out of an estate. There was an unusual version of the Liberty, a version of the Christmas Tree, a white base with purple and yellow (lemon and plum), a clear mustard and ketchup (and Mayo) and a white base with orange, lemon, lime stripes.....THE CITRUS. There were not an even number of the different types, very few lemon and plum and liberty, so the sets of 5 were sold very quickly. The largest quantity was of the Citrus, which was o.k. because they were my favorite, I had not seen them before and have yet to see one that did not originate from this group. I believe them to be experimental or a very short run!

We had to put a set price on the marbles in order to make a profit and keep the few we wanted. It was my job to sell them. I still have some Citrus for sale and a few of the clear k&m. I guess that's it in a large nutshell!

This story unfolds and no one questions the validity. But the "EXOTICS" get dragged through the mud even after 90+ percent of the experts in cac's claim their real. Are we foolish to trust amyone?

I get a big ol'smile when I think.........what if the exotics had this for it's origin?

juicyfruit!

[david Chamberlain]

Good Morning Mon,

In a nut shell, the problem that the Exotics were presented with shortly after their arrival on the scene was JEALOUSY, GREED and/or IGNORANCE. Numerous collectors did not gain access to the marbles early on and it did not take long for the marbles to skyrocket in value once they got into knowledgeable hands. Still lesser purveyors of the marbles with their shuck and jive made-up stories about the marbles added to the controversy which will normally swirl up around any significant find. It's human nature. I don't see anything unusual about it and for me it clearly explains the sustained nature of the controversy/conspiracy.

For the most part I've said my piece about the EXOTICS and I believe from a fairly neutral and disinterested position.

David

[Steph]

Good find, Mon.

I should have remembered where that was! The posts in the archives survived the storage crunch. Glad that one made it through.

[m!b$]

Alan still get some crazy prices for the exotics so there is obviously a large group of collectors that believe them to be the real deal. and I have seen some go for real money at recent shows. Although the one that sold for the most 1400 was a Carl Fisher clay ball.(just shows how a fantastic find can blind even a seasoned collector)

I've come to the conclusion that Galen was right in calling CF's (or any clay marbles) "clay balls". Fortunately, I wasn't foolish enough to overspend on them. They are nice-looking marbles, but I'm not convinced that it takes any considerable talent to make them.

And I don't know how anyone could be fooled into thinking a Carl Fisher marble is a CAC. Every CF marble I've owned (maybe twenty or so from when he began making them, to a couple years ago) has a shallow groove that runs the entire circumference of the marble. It's easy to see with magnification.

I was one of the (nitwits) who encouraged him to put weights in his marbles because I thought he could sell them better if they weren't so light. I have one of the very first weighted marbles he ever made. He told me he quit making them because it was too hard to precisely center the weight in the marble so the marble wouldn't wobble drunkenly as it rolled.

Could someone please post a picture of an exotic Peltier Citrus? I'd like to see what they look like.

Hey, never mind about pics of those imaginary exotic citruses...

Edited December 26, 2010 by m!b$

[mibcapper]

Amazing! Just F-N AMAZING! Here is a post by Smitty on Dec 31, 2005. I like this part: I had not seen them before and have yet to see one that did not originate from this group.

I'll try to tell the story without writing a novel. Several years ago, on ebay a seller from N.J. was offering a group of 5 unusual Peltiers, which is what I collect, if I remember it correctly, I didn't get the first group. Then they sold another group, which I won. Then they put on another group! Which I also won.I politely asked them how many groups they were going to be selling and since I was the high bidder on 2 of the groups, "how much if I bought the rest?" They sent me a list of the remaining Peltiers and a price. It wasn't cheap, in fact, there was no way I could afford it even though it was reasonable. So I turned them over to a well known collector friend of mine who lives in Eastern PA (H.D.) and he drove over and purchased them.

The seller explained that they were all in one large jar out of an estate. There was an unusual version of the Liberty, a version of the Christmas Tree, a white base with purple and yellow (lemon and plum), a clear mustard and ketchup (and Mayo) and a white base with orange, lemon, lime stripes.....THE CITRUS. There were not an even number of the different types, very few lemon and plum and liberty, so the sets of 5 were sold very quickly. The largest quantity was of the Citrus, which was o.k. because they were my favorite, I had not seen them before and have yet to see one that did not originate from this group. I believe them to be experimental or a very short run!

We had to put a set price on the marbles in order to make a profit and keep the few we wanted. It was my job to sell them. I still have some Citrus for sale and a few of the clear k&m. I guess that's it in a large nutshell!

This story unfolds and no one questions the validity. But the "EXOTICS" get dragged through the mud even after 90+ percent of the experts in cac's claim their real. Are we foolish to trust amyone?

I get a big ol'smile when I think.........what if the exotics had this for it's origin?

juicyfruit!

out of the jar ... bill

[lstmmrbls]

Since then they sure have come out of the woodwork. It seems that find and making the sets and bringing them to the forfront has led to additional types being included as Citri and the sense that they are much more common than first believed.

[mon]

Since then they sure have come out of the woodwork. It seems that find and making the sets and bringing them to the forfront has led to additional types being included as Citri and the sense that they are much more common than first believed

Or they're still making them? mon