Sample Kit - National<G> Onyx Marbles

[oldmarblenut]

Hi Hansel, the one pictured with the CA's is just over 11/16" and glows when looking through it, also it has no eye.

As I mentioned, I always based them on their immediate color, the CA's seem to have a blue tint when viewed in hand and have a more transparent base with swirls visible, the Akro moonies I have all glow and the white flinties do not glow, to me a white flintie has the typical eye and does not glow, not many of my glowing moonies have the eye,I am not sure when I made this determination on categorizing them, it must have been long ago but to me the Akro moonies and flinties all seem to be more "white" in hand with less transparency.

Interesting question now that it has been asked, a moonie glows and white flintie doesn't??

Many years ago at the shows I would spend quite a bit of time with Stanley Block and Bob asking questions and sharing thoughts about particular marble characteristics, maybe it was Stanley who gave me the CA blue tint clue and the Akro moonie and flintie differences??.

[hdesousa]

Hi Hansel, the one pictured with the CA's is just over 11/16" and glows when looking through it, also it has no eye.

As I mentioned, I always based them on their immediate color, the CA's seem to have a blue tint when viewed in hand and have a more transparent base with swirls visible, the Akro moonies I have all glow and the white flinties do not glow, to me a white flintie has the typical eye and does not glow, not many of my glowing moonies have the eye,I am not sure when I made this determination on categorizing them, it must have been long ago but to me the Akro moonies and flinties all seem to be more "white" in hand with less transparency.

Interesting question now that it has been asked, a moonie glows and white flintie doesn't??

Many years ago at the shows I would spend quite a bit of time with Stanley Block and Bob asking questions and sharing thoughts about particular marble characteristics, maybe it was Stanley who gave me the CA blue tint clue and the Akro moonie and flintie differences??.

Scott,

Do you have any better evidence than "someone told me so", that CA moons have a blue tint?

The orange glow on the dug Akros is good evidence that some small Akros glow.

But I have several boxes containing Christensen Agate "Worlds Best Moons" and have not noticed any of them having a blue tint, but will check next time the sun comes out.

I'm not familiar with Akro's term "white flintie". Do you mean "flint moonies" ?

see

http://www.mibcollectors.com/view_lot.php?marble_lot_id=6740&back_link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mibcollectors.com%2Fmarble_types.php%3Fkeyword%3Dmoonie%26keyword_refinement%3D4%26exclude_keywords%3D%26photos_only%3D%26individual%3D%26condition_start%3D%26condition_end%3D%26size_start%3D%26size_end%3D%26price_start%3D%26price_end%3D%26status%3D%26orderby%3D10%26offset%3D%26quicksearch%3D%26limit_member_id%3D%26searching%3D1%26limit_marble_collection_id%3D%26submitted%3D1&back_link_description=

[oldmarblenut]

You may be correct with "flint moonie"

I can only go by recollection, I remember the rule moonies had to glow, I am not 100% about who said CA moons have the blue tint but it is the rule I used for myself to separate the types, there is a distinct difference in the 2 types, the one having the blue tint is more transparent and swirls are clearer to see and they have no eyes, as for the ones I call Akro moonies, they all glow as per the old rule and only the flinties had to have the eyes, I've never owned an original un-opened box of either so I cannot say with any certainty.

It would be a miracle to see an un-opened box from old stock, it would solve all our questions.

I just used the old rules and descriptions that have been followed for years and based the CA's on the blue tint as they are definitely different than the known Akro's.

I apologize if the blue tint has caused confusion, it's just the rule I have used for many years.

As for cut lines, these must be the hardest marble to determine where the cut is.

[machinemades]

Hansel,

Have you by any chance checked for cutlines on CA Worlds Best Moonies? That might be a definite identification guide if they have cutlines. Akro Moonies or Master Mellon Balls, which by the way by far the most attractive and colorful of any translucent type marbles, do not have cutlines.

[oldmarblenut]

After looking at that box of flint moonies I see 3 maybe 4 that may have a blue tint, not all are a perfect match in color as the boxes you posted earlier are.

from left to right/top to bottom, row 3 marble 5, row 4 marble 3 and row 5 marble 4.

The old rule for flinties is they had to have the eyes in any color and in those eyes was almost a tunnel to see through pole to pole.

I didn't write any of the books nor did I have any contributing input.

[Steph]

Hansel,

Have you by any chance checked for cutlines on CA Worlds Best Moonies? That might be a definite identification guide if they have cutlines. Akro Moonies or Master Mellon Balls, which by the way by far the most attractive and colorful of any translucent type marbles, do not have cutlines.

^^

That's what I was curious about ... the cutlines and general structure of the CA Moons.

[BuckEye]

I have a definite hand gathered moonie with "9" and cut off. It does have a blue tint. I always kept it with my CaCs. I'll try and get pics

[hdesousa]

You may be correct with "flint moonie"

I can only go by recollection, I remember the rule moonies had to glow, I am not 100% about who said CA moons have the blue tint but it is the rule I used for myself to separate the types, there is a distinct difference in the 2 types, the one having the blue tint is more transparent and swirls are clearer to see and they have no eyes, as for the ones I call Akro moonies, they all glow as per the old rule and only the flinties had to have the eyes, I've never owned an original un-opened box of either so I cannot say with any certainty.

It would be a miracle to see an un-opened box from old stock, it would solve all our questions.

I just used the old rules and descriptions that have been followed for years and based the CA's on the blue tint as they are definitely different than the known Akro's.

I apologize if the blue tint has caused confusion, it's just the rule I have used for many years.

As for cut lines, these must be the hardest marble to determine where the cut is.

"an un-opened box from old stock" might drive you truly nuts. There are numerous boxes out there (mainly Akro) filled with a matching set of 25 marbles that do not resemble what the box is labeled, all unplayed-with and rarely if ever found in the wild. That could be a subject of another thread.

What is probably a reliable method of determining the true I.D. of a marble is to examine the contents of several boxes obtained from different sources, preferably non-marble people (thank you eBay), which have, say at least 90% identical unplayed-with marbles . For example, I posted pics of three Akro Moonie boxes, one No.1 and two No.2, all from different sources, and which contain matching marbles that do not glow and have fish eyes.

That should be pretty reliable evidence that Akro made moonies, 11/16 to 3/4" which do not glow and have fish eyes.

Another reliable (but still not foolproof) way of identifying a marble is if a relatively rare marble is found in a matching mint set.

e.g. The box of Primas which Ann pictured in post #3

I would say with a high degree of certainty that these are the real McCoy.

"I apologize if the blue tint has caused confusion, it's just the rule I have used for many years"

You should stop apologizing. This is a discussion - anything you say could be useful - and can be held against you. :-)

I'll check my CA moons for cut lines and a blue tint.

[hdesousa]

Nearly all of the Cerise Agates in my box have a visible (but not feel-able) seam. Another Cerise-box-owner has confirmed to me that his do too. You must have at least one box, Hansel . . . do many of your Cerises have a seam? I don't have any Cardinal Reds, and like Mike have only seen them in pics, so I can't offer any meaningful comparison there.

Unless someone sends me some Cardinal Reds to look at, of course. It could happen.

Ann,

My one cerise agate box may not have the original marbles. Don't remember where I got it, and many look played with. They all have that orangy hue, but only a few have a seam (that I can clearly make out). I'm guessing whoever backfilled it thought orange = cerise.

Hansel

[lstmmrbls]

I would have thought the Akros with fish eyes came after that box. And the woodgrain pattern I am talking about is not just whisps. It looks very much like actual woodgrain and has pattern and form. Not just whisps. It is usually easy to see in Realers with the right lighting. As Mike says I have seen it in other Peltiers but never in any other companies marbles. Most of the CAC worlds best Moons I have seen look like Hansels and have lots of irregular whisping inside. I have only seen the translucent glowing marbles sold as Moonies by Akro, not the solid ones in that one box. I could not call those Moonies?

[clydetul62]

Hansel, I wouldn't have been able to answer your query on how I identify as I think I only have one CAC to go by. They were never really my faves so I didn't collect them. In my milkie box they all have a ton of bubbles, orange backlit. All but 2 have the wood grain pattern. The 2 have little to none wispy but still backlit orange. Some looks like you can see the cut. As Sami pointed out the translucent Masters that came in the worlds fair box. I checked those. They have a ton of bubbles, has the wood grain pattern, doesn't backlit orange and no eye.

In Canton there were 2 cerise boxes on display. One had more reddish mibs closer to a cardinal. The other had mibs more on the orange hue side. See what happens when stay home and play in the snow in PA. You could have compared the 2.

[ann]

Ann,

My one cerise agate box may not have the original marbles. Don't remember where I got it, and many look played with. They all have that orangy hue, but only a few have a seam (that I can clearly make out). I'm guessing whoever backfilled it thought orange = cerise.

Hansel

Thanks, Hansel. A few of mine (all with the orangy hue, as you said) don't have a seam or cut line I can find either -- but most do. At least the kind of seam or cut line that machine-made (feathered) Pelt slags have (which is to say sometimes submerged, sometimes very subtle). Are some very "light in the white," as I think of it? A couple of mine have very little . . .

[lstmmrbls]

I have found that the feathered pelt slags if examined close enough most often will show both cutoffs as they were Gob fed marbles. I believe the cerise were handgathered.

[ann]

I agree.

[migbar]

The cerise and early onyx/agate marbles I showed seem to all be handgathered, I think...

[hdesousa]

I would also like to know If anyone has info Akro Agate marbles were ever distributed by Gropper. I believe some were rebranded by jobbers(like some nets of Akros)but never heard Gropper had anything to do with Akro.

This is about as close as I can come to saying that Gropper bought from Akro.

Probably happened just after Gropper and Peltier had their falling out, as these 40 count National Onyx boxes originally had (what looks like, to me, non-feathered) Peltier onyx ("slags"), but after the breakup, at a time when Akro only had spiral onyx for sale, as they were no longer making striped onyx ("slags") in 1932, Gropper had to make do with Akro's spiral onyx.

BTW, George Souris, the king of marble company advertising, tells me he has not seen any Gropper ads dated after 1932.

Did the Peltier/Gropper breakup also help finish off M.Gropper & Sons?

'Original' Gropper National Onyx: (everyone agree these are Peltier?)

Same box with Akro spiral onyx, with a couple Peltier feathered onyx:

It's easy to dismiss these boxes (especially the one with Akros) as being "backfilled", but they were bought on eBay from non-marble people and the marbles match in condition and 'patina' (dust).

[Steph]

BTW, George Souris, the king of marble company advertising, tells me he has not seen any Gropper ads dated after 1932.

Did the Peltier/Gropper breakup also help finish off M.Gropper & Sons?

I saw a Gropper ad which was said to have come from 1939 but it was for a Gropper top.

There also happen to be Akro marbles in the ad but no apparent connection between the companies.

[lstmmrbls]

The condition of that box would eliminate most all thoughts I may have had that the marbles were original to the box. Just my opinion.

[migbar]

The first Gropper National Onyx box above absolutely looks 100% Peltier, the other backfilled.

I'm not certain, but I think Milton Gropper died in the early 1930's, and perhaps his sons had no desire to continue the business in such difficult times....

(oops...I didn't see the ad Steph posted there...I am probably wrong, yet again.)

[hdesousa]

I agree a beat up box usually makes the authenticity of the contents suspect. But in this case, the integrity of the 40 count spiral onyx box is good (corners, sides, top and bottom are intact), as if the box was handled a lot, but the contents not necessarily used. The marbles are not played with (some chipped, but the chips are in the box); I'm pretty sure the contents are original. Bought it on eBay in 2008 and was in touch with the owner, who was born in 1919 and not a marble collector. His name is written on the bottom of the box. The marbles are No.1 (not the usual No.0 for Akros 40 count boxes) and it would be very difficult for anyone, especially a non-marble collector, to back fill with unplayed marbles.

It's only been a few decades since anyone has been able to sort out Peltier marbles from Akro from Christensen, etc. (except perhaps the people at M.Gropper and Sons, may they R.I.P.)

[hdesousa]

I saw a Gropper ad which was said to have come from 1939 but it was for a Gropper top.

There also happen to be Akro marbles in the ad but no apparent connection between the companies.

Steph,

How sure are you the ad is from 1939?

[migbar]

My understanding is that Peltier was responsible for packing their marbles into the boxes, and that they did so, in a small room just outside the north wall of the main factory building in Ottawa. It's way unlikely they would ever have used Akro marbles. I didn't think that Gropper was involved with the packing of any of the Peltier boxes.

[Steph]

Steph,

How sure are you the ad is from 1939?

I only have the ebay seller's word to go by on that one, but it fits in with other ads from that period. N Shure ads in particular.

[hdesousa]

My understanding is that Peltier was responsible for packing their marbles into the boxes, and that they did so, in a small room just outside the north wall of the main factory building in Ottawa. It's way unlikely they would ever have used Akro marbles. I didn't think that Gropper was involved with the packing of any of the Peltier boxes.

That Gropper/Peltier packing arrangement makes sense, and I doubt any Akro marbles were sent to Ottawa. But Gropper must also have had other packing locations. Are you also saying Peltier never sold any bulk (unpacked) marbles, as Akro did in wooden crates?

Look here, at the way Prima and Cerise agates are packed. Never seen anything like it in person and no mention of Gropper, but that may not mean much. Did Gropper do ALL the packing for Peltier when they were in business together?

[migbar]

Hansel, I'm still searching, but so far, at least in the early years before 1928, I've seen no mention of Peltier sending unpacked bulk marbles to Gropper, only marbles packed into boxes at Peltier.