westcoast_dave Posted November 29, 2014 Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 Peltier's move from semi-automatic to nearly full automated machines was introduced publicly with US patent 1,927,650. Striating the glass was one of the most covered topics in the patent text. Do you believe it was used to make peltier's feathered slags? Why or why not? Patent link: Method of and device for making vitreous objects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted November 29, 2014 Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 This is where I usually let Mike, Ann and Galen debate. Will be interesting to have you in the mix now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migbar Posted November 29, 2014 Report Share Posted November 29, 2014 I am definitely in the minority, in my belief that the feathered slags were not made by this method. The feathered slag pattern seems to primarily wrap around the surface of the marble, as opposed to an extenuated glass stream folding upon itself and piling up on an inclined conical surface and being re-fused before exiting the hole below, to be cut into a gob, as described in the above patent. A folded and piled up stream of glass would produce ribbons in all directions with many loops, not the parallel ribbons of the feathered slags. The feathered slags could possibly have been made with a similar, but simpler set up, without the final chamber of the above patent. I suspect that the white glass was added as various size small chunks, not molten glass. White glass is much stiffer than any clear or transparent glass, and will melt and flow at a higher temperature. The chunks would sink into the molten base glass slightly, like an iceberg, and as they melt, they would each elongate and stretch into a thin line toward the place of discharge. The resulting stream would be made up of dozens of parallel thin white threads separated by the transparent colored base glass. The pressure of the molten base glass on the sides of the submerged white glass would tend to flatten the lines into thinner vanes. Different colors of glass stay separate, and do not blend together; each chunk of white glass added to the tank will make a separate white line.This patent was filed in 1928, and likely researched in late 1927, when Peltier was making onyx marbles, but they were soon to try marbles with base glass of white or opaque colors. My thought is that the patent in question, if used with a white or colored base glass, instead of clear as mentioned, could have made the "Miller" zebra type two color marbles, or what Peltier called "sunsets" with three colors, or most especially, the burnt Christmas trees and burnt rebels, by adding charges of molten glass side colors through the portholes on the side of the furnace. This method of adding the side colors through one or two side ports of the furnace would explain how the burnt Christmas trees and burnt rebels had one color down the middle of another.some foldy piled up Peltier marble halfs...inside view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 "Homework, 2009 thread"........ http://marbleconnection.com/topic/11753-idle-question-for-an-expert/ Could it be a glass chemistry phenomenon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted November 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 I am definitely in the minority, in my belief that the feathered slags were not made by this method. The feathered slag pattern seems to primarily wrap around the surface of the marble, as opposed to an extenuated glass stream folding upon itself and piling up on an inclined conical surface and being re-fused before exiting the hole below, to be cut into a gob, as described in the above patent. I see what your saying Mike. And its good info. In comparing some of the old swirled up pelts to the feathered slags, i do see the wrap around pattern on the feathered slag that your speaking of. While the old swirled up pelts are piled up with internal swirling in a random-like fashion. Both marbles still exhibiting two cut lines, but the swirled up old pelt's cut lines being harder to spot. Do you think the feathered slags were made with the Peltier's following patent of vitreous-like objects submitted just a year later or most likely on the feb 1931 patent of agatized bodies? And are there any company inventory cues that can help with a date? Patent link: http://www.google.com/patents/US1865787 Patent link: http://www.google.com/patents/US1946879 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 With Sellers bright mind I doubt this was an accidental non-physical happening. I also believe that many (if not most) of the processes used at many of the marble making factories were never patented. That may be the case with this process. It is found to a lesser degree on the base glass of the Realers and a few others. I wonder if it was a mixing method that created a desired effect. I also know for a fact that the machinery being used for the production of many(if not most) items is often very different in actual use than what the drawings of a patent may show. Many folks have and still do think patents are not always necessary or in the best interest so production proceeds with the hope the equipment stay a secret as long as possible. CAC may be a great example of a company using unpatented machinery and processes. I believe a lot of equipment used at Peltier Glass probably had no patents associated with it. I also really haven't seen too many Pelts I would really call swirls (piled up etc like that patent shows, If that part of the patent was even ever used) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 And I still think that patent was for the feathered effect Among the objects of the invention is to provide a novel method of and novel means for producing variegated or striated vitreous objects, such as glass marbles with included striae, with the striae or streaks or the like distinctly appearing in the mass or body of the object and thoroughly well distributed therein I also noted he talks about a stream 8 inches long being best, was this so the stream piled up circularly making the striations the run through another orifice before being sheared for a marble. He talks about a lot of manipulation to the glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migbar Posted November 30, 2014 Report Share Posted November 30, 2014 Dave, the first patent you mention in post #5, is reminiscent of the MFC marble machine, and I don't believe it was ever made. The second patent is for NLR's with six ribbons. The marble that mibstified showed above looks more like the interior threads of acme realors, and I think that is a different process or effect than that of the feathered slags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I probably should stay out of this and just see where things fall. It may be of help or maybe just more confusion ? Was this equipment made or used to produce the feathered slags? There are so many variables to take into consideration and limitations with glass temperature. I was glad to see in the patent that it does mention the length of the glass stream from the exit of the furnace to the shear. Does influence the final pattern or look of the marble. I have said this for several years. Within limits of glass temp. and space. With a longer glass stream from the furnace to the shear. As gravity pulls on the glass more rotation takes place with the glass stream,making a twisted swirl pattern. I looked at 44 of my feathered slags just as a sample group. Just curious of the percentage of swirls and non swirls. With my sample group 31 were definate swirls twisted around the marbles,most times in a cork pattern. The remaining 13 were definate non swirl. These 13 made straight lines or patterns from a cut line right back around without twisting. Returning back to almost where it originated without much or any twist at all. So were the featherd slags made with a short stream,long stream or both ? . Many of the feathered slags exhibit nice flames. Is this due to the glass piling on the shear plate before being cut ? This may happen or may not happen due to a long glass stream length. Most shear stroke speed can be adjusted to cause or eliminate piling. The size or diameter of the glass stream can be increased or decreased to cause or eliminate the glass piling on the shear plate. Some of the feathered slags flame nice and some do not,more do not. If the vintage makers could control the production of flames. I think we would see larger numbers of them from all the makers that produced flames type marbles. I feel sure that the flame type marbles were also more popular with the children of the day. With marble production that i have witnessed steady since about 2000. At three different locations with many different tanks and machines. I have never seen anyone yet produce flames in any steady predicable manner. Not that it has not been tried in many ways,including piling of glass on the shear plate. The flame pattern will usually appear while making swirl type marbles. Usually for only a short time and may or may not appear more than once or twice in a twelve hour period. Most often the flame pattern appears more when the furnace or tank level is lower. So was the longer glass stream used for feathered slags ? More of my random examples the color striping does swirl or twist. But Not all. Was the longer stream length used to make the named Miller swirls ? Most of my feathered examples have the color striping close to or more near the surface of the marble. If the glass stream piles on the shear plate more of the color striping goes into or ends up on the inside or center of the marble. When the glass stream piles it does so in layers and the majority which is visible is only the edges of the color striping. With most of my feathered slags the color striping looks to be laying more flat on or near the surface. Including the ones which have the flame pattern. I agree that the feathered slag pattern is more on or near the surface wraping around the marble, Not piling and folding over on itself again and again. A short glass stream length can fold over on itself one time. You see this with the Jabo butt crack,the Vitro V,the Cairo C,the last years of Alley. Even in the lesser number of feathered slags. I think probably all the straight ribbon marbles were made with a short length glass stream. I agree that probably chunks of white glass was used for striping. As it melted slowely it would make thin stretched lines as it traveled to the discharge and end up on or near the surface of the final marble. I am not so sure that this equipment was designed to make the feathered slags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Sure, wait till I'm out of town for Turkey and bring this up again. OK. Yes, patent 1,927,650 would produce the feathered slags. I have no arguments different from the ones I've used before (Mibstified homework thread link!) If you know that patents are legal documents written by lawyers you understand how very important precise terminology is . . . like the use of the word "striated" in this patent. Not striping glass. Not ribbons of glass. Striating glass. In a transparent base. There's even a drawing of the kind of marble that would be produced in the upper left corner of Figure 1 (it's figure 7). It's no NLR. Most basically, there is no need for anything like the device in the patent, which is primarily concerned with internal striations, if you're going to use an opaque body glass. You can get ribbons (or flames, or whatever) on opaque body glass without the patented mechanism above the orifice. The shamrock marble guy, who is also a fluid dynamics guy, agrees with me. Or at least a very irritated marble friend of mine tells me that he does.. But I still love migbar anyway. He's just misguided. I am sure in time he can be put right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migbar Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 There is plenty of room for disagreement here, and you are free to believe whatever you like, and it makes no difference to me, whatever your opinion is. I'm not pushing my beliefs, just stating my opinion, to the best of my knowledge on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 See? He's perfectly reasonable. Unlike me, but mainly because I now have plumbers in my kitchen exploring the sudden swelling under the floor . . . I'm afraid to go home . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Dave, Yes, I take the position that Patent US1927650 describes the technique and equipment required to make the Peltier "feathered" slags. Ann, Damn, that is one helluva call-out! Where did that "fluid dynamics guy" description come from? LOL! A major weakness of this patent is "Figure 7". To me, the figure represents a "wire pull" instead of a "wood-grained" or "feathered" slag. This drawing conflicts with the text. "If the outfowing molten mass can be drawn out or attenuated sufficiently, and then re-fused, before the suspended or mold charge is cut off, then the striating material may become distributed in the mass of the suspended or mold charge, so as to appear as a group of lines or streaks therein." The magical element is the second chamber after the initial plunger and nozzle. It is here that the initial stream winds back and forth upon itself against the second conical nozzle wall. The opaque portion of the glass stream is presented to the outside of said nozzle. Due to the shape of the nozzle and distribution of the glass, the center (or middle) portion of the gather flows faster toward the opening. This difference in flow pulls the middle away from the edges and elongates the opaque glass ribbon. The result is a series of nested chevrons. Look at perfect example of a Peltier "Feathered" Slag. It should have two cut-lines (one at each pole) and the feathering is on one side only. (>>>>>) The center of the arrow is the direction the glass flowed out of the second nozzle at the shearing device. \\ // Nozzle V V _V_ Shear V V | V | V V Flow Marbles that exhibit more than 180-dgrees (one side) of feathering are the result of an elongated gob that is sheared and folded onto itself (like a "U"). Not unlike how the Jabo "Butt Crack" or Vitro "V" are created. Check out Bob Block's green slag on eBay right now. There is no argument that statistical aberrations can occur during a manufacturing run, thus resulting in "unexplainable" results. The goal is to provide consistent and repeatable results. Toss the outliers! (Or keep them if they're cool.) One final point, the key is that the glass stream hits the side of the second conical nozzle. This constrains the glass and the direction of "wobble" or "waver". If the stream where to hit at the center, it could move freely 360-degrees and wrap like a "flame" or become a "wire pull". Over boil some angel hair pasta. Take one very limp noodle. Hold it vertically. Lower onto a table or flat surface. Keep your hand steady in the same vertical axis. Avoid influencing any side-to-side motion. Let the noodle and gravity do the work. Keep lowering the noodle and watch how it piles up. Mike, I hear you. Ain't got nothin' to sell either. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Hello John! And OMG you're right -- Fig. 7 does look more like a wirepull, even though that's not really what's described . . . Your chevron reference explains to me (for the first time) the weird wood-grain-knothole-like pattern on a lot of Pelt slags. And I think you made an interesting point that brings in some of what Ron was saying too - - - One final point, the key is that the glass stream hits the side of the second conical nozzle. This constrains the glass and the direction of "wobble" or "waver". If the stream where to hit at the center, it could move freely 360-degrees and wrap like a "flame" or become a "wire pull." Wish I had something to sell . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Ann, I was hoping for the discussion of the DAS "Ram Head" marbles and Peltier "Miller" Swirls to pop-up, but I was enjoying this one on the sidelines, while it lasted. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migbar Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Good to see you, John ! michael s. barton barton art glass works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I am about to be a believer. The DAS Rams Head or Peltier Miller swirls could be interesting ? Thats definately two new seperate threads. Dave has his can opener sharpened. I need to get some more popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I'm going off with Ron to get popcorn. We'll be right back. Steph? Wanna start a DAS Ram's Head thread? That's the one that particularly interests me, reminding me as it does of some of the early Pelts (usually called yin-yang or zig-zag ones. And may or may not include individual "Miller Swirl" examples?) Sorry John -- but I hoped maybe "fluid dynamics" would get your attention! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Me? I have a number of them but I don't know what questions to ask. You go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Kay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 Mike, Good to see you, too! As a lurker, I get to see you more than you see me (6:1). Always enjoy your posts, but thoroughly enjoy your spirit. Ron, I guess I need some schooling. The picture above from Mike shows some marbles that I would consider "Miller Swirls". Correct? What do you call the Peltier marbles that have a defined "twist" like the DAS "Rams Head" marbles? Peltier "Swirls"? Peltier "Twists"? Miller "Twists"? (Yes, I know some cringe a the word "Miller" and consider it a misnomer.) Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 1, 2014 Report Share Posted December 1, 2014 I've heard them called "yin-yang" and zig-zag Pelts. I know some contemporary torch artists call the same pattern wig-wag. Don't know if Pelt People use a consistant term or not. Dave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Really enjoying this thread and the level of knowledge and detail you all are bringing to the discussion. When referencing "ying-yang" Pelts, do you mean the Pelts that look as if they were twisted at the "equater" while the "poles" were held statonary? I have a handfull of them that I have pictured below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Dave has managed to produce similar patterns with his machinery. Maybe you can get him to tell you how its done. Probably nothing too difficult as the pattern appears on some of almost all makers. Tons of them happened to early Jabos. I do not believe Peltier did this on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Gents, Yes, those are great examples of balanced "Rams Head", "Back Twist", "Chevron" style machine made marbles. There are also versions where only one pole exhibits the "Twist" or "Ying-Yang" feature. Go to the DAS Rams Head Marbles thread for continued discussion about this style. John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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