lstmmrbls Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 After more study I have now come to believe that the main difference between slags and swirls(other than glass quality) is slag glass is mixed or layered together in the pot or tank and swirls glass has the 2 colors coming together in the tank right before the stream leaves the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Sometimes the later Akro slags give me a bit of trouble to distinguish from swirls (and vice versa),mainly when i don't see a cut-off line. Do you think there is always a visible cut-off line on later Akro slags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Winnie, the cut-line is not always visible on akro slags. I've found that the cut-line can land on the transparent part of the glass and not on the white. Making it extremely difficult to find. Especially on slags with little to no surface white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 After more study I have now come to believe that the main difference between slags and swirls(other than glass quality) is slag glass is mixed or layered together in the pot or tank and swirls glass has the 2 colors coming together in the tank right before the stream leaves the tank. This is starting to make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dink1111 Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 After more study I have now come to believe that the main difference between slags and swirls(other than glass quality) is slag glass is mixed or layered together in the pot or tank and swirls glass has the 2 colors coming together in the tank right before the stream leaves the tank. I had what I thought was a good clarification here, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized I think I don't know what I think I know. So I'm pulling the whole comment while I chew on this a little more. Sorry.... Dink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 . . .slag glass is mixed or layered together in the pot or tank and swirls glass has the 2 colors coming together in the tank right before the stream leaves the tank. The Peltier patent we've been talking about in other threads has the opaque white entering the tank near the orifice, where the stream leaves the tank, and they're slags. Or do you mean really really really right before, like through the use of nozzles or in-tank pots (crucibles?) right there where the glass begins to drop? That might be something. Hope Dink comes back with some ideas! Meanwhile, I;m gonna go back and stare at mibstified's Blue Lace, and the purple beauty above it . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I really hadn't considered the Pelt patent as it seems to mix the glass mechanically then runs it through another orifice before the shearing. It is in a class all it own? But I have decided that mixing in the tank is the main difference for "most" and the reason a shear mark or remnant of one can be found on so many slags. It is a large unfolded stream already mixed up before shearing. Swirls are mixed by folding in the cup after shearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 Swirls are mixed by folding in the cup after shearing. Not sure I understand that. Are you saying companies let already-sheared gobs of glass fall into a cup of some sort before those gobs hit the rollers? I'm not certain, but I think even Akro's spinner cups (whether spinning or not) came before the shears, didn't they? I could be wrong. It would be easier for me to believe that if the white were introduced more-or-less right at, or above, the orifice funnel (by whatever means), the composite stream could be made to waver enough (think John McCormick's spaghetti noodle) -- and/or be affected enough by the action of the moving shear, to produce a transparent swirl, or something like it. Or, as in the Peltier patent, the glass flows into a "cup" (or funnel with bushings) and piles up before it hits the shears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 9, 2014 Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 OOOPS! got my description a little basackwards, it is called a cup but is actually a round hole in a thick block of steel the stream piles up in then slides over another hole dropping through and getting sheared off in the process. Where the two blocks of steel meet at a hole is called the Shear. So If you eliminate all that, mix the glass in the tank run a thick stream directly through some blade type shears directed to the rollers(funnel) you get one glob with out folding and get a shear mark? This is real hard to explain as I need to point, wave my hands, and make gestures for a proper description. And I am a slow typer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I know. I've been having trouble with my own sign language. But I think we're getting closer. I just have to figure out what the difference would have to be between, say, the Peltier patent set up and the type of shear you're talking about . . . I think I'll go off in a corner and mull it over. And eat a turkey burger with some butter and salt and pepper and a lot of mayo and mustard and ketchup and onion. That usually helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2014 I've found that the cut-line can land on the transparent part of the glass and not on the white. Making it extremely difficult to find. Especially on slags with little to no surface white. And this makes good sense to me, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 one of the early Miller machines had actual scissor like shears attached right above the rollers so they opened and closed mechanically. Boyce thought the set up was for hand gathered marbles but I and I think Mikey believed it was set up for a gob feeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 No I am back to being all confused again. I just can see no way that a marble that is not hand gathered can have only one cut line. (I am ignoring swirls in this context). And have spent many hours in discussions and we all always ended up pretty much agreeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I just can see no way that a marble that is not hand gathered can have only one cut line. (I am ignoring swirls in this context I think single-seam CAC slags are machine made, don't you? It can happen easily enough if conditions are just right. As a visual (nothing else) think of the design of the Vitro "horseshoe" cats . . . I can envision one edge of the falling glass stream hanging up momentarily on one edge of the shear; and the weight of the glass and gravity continuing to pull the rest of the stream down through the shear, so that when the gob is lopped off = one seam. Or what looks like one seam. I suppose it would really be one seam "overwrting" another. I thinnk there's something about that in the MK swirl article. I'll dig it out and see . . . Or do you think both single- and double-seamed CAC slags are hand gathered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 one of the early Miller machines had actual scissor like shears attached right above the rollers so they opened and closed mechanically. Boyce thought the set up was for hand gathered marbles but I and I think Mikey believed it was set up for a gob feeder Something else I have to check. I believe the scissors-like shears above the "Miller" rollers were originally operated / triggered by the glass gatherer, so in the beginning it was really for handgathered (slag) marbles. Not sure how long that type of shear was used at Peltier, but the (Empire) gob feeded didn't come along until later. I wonder . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migbar Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I agree with Boyce that the scissor shears on the Miller machines were for hand gathered marbles. The shears were operated by hitting the punty on the rod above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Love these photos - - - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 The photographs are awesome. Thank you for sharing. Akro also used Miller automatic shears, and nearly a decade before Peltier. Akro purchased 3 by 1915 according to a National Glass Budget 1915 periodical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 THANK YOU great information !!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Alox shear for one inch marbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Alox shear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Alox shear for one inch. Alox shear rings and Jabo shear plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Bottom half of Alox one inch shear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I have been told that the amount of space or distance between the holes of the shear or shear knife plate can affect if the shear marks shows or not. This has to do with the glass stream folding or piling before the next shear or cut is made. Most Jabo marbles show no shear mark,cut line or seam. Most shear blade type used at Jabo. Extremely hard steel. But Griff,Bruce Burkhart and myself produced steady repeated single cut line and double cut line marbles plus the regular no cut line marbles at Jabo one night for a 12hr period. All 5/8 size and made on the same exact set up of the tank,orfice,stream length,same shear,same shear plate knife,etc. We made no switch of any equipment and made over and over,single cut or seam and double cut or seam and no cut line or seam swirls. More than one witness,five of us there operating the machine at Jabo most of the night. One person did leave about midnight. The other four of us were there for all night,until Dave and the other investors returned to finish the 3/4 inch run. The only change we made was the position of how the glass stream first entered the shear opening. We made single cut or single seam marbles repeated one after another and no hand gathering. We also made double cut or seam marbles and swirls with no cut or seam showing. All with no equipement change. So there is a WIDE range of things that can affect if a cut line shows or not at all and what the line may look like. Griff may or may not want to add any comment to this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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