Slag / Transparent Swirl Thing

[sissydear]

I will add that the marbles they made are sure pretty. We even named one of them "Griff". I remember how proud they were of what they had discovered. I remember that more than I remember the marbles.

[BuckEye]

Great info everyone. Dave, I have never seen that before thanks for sharing!

[Steph]

Alox shear for one inch marbles.

Alox shear 002.JPG

Alox shear 004.JPG

Alox one inch?

Do tell!

[lstmmrbls]

I am now in agreement with Mikey and Boyce.

Question for Ron, When making marbles with cut lines on them and not altering anything but the shear, were the marbles swirls that showed cutlines or did they come out with straight lines seam to seam.?

[wvrons]

We did not alter the shear in any manner. We did not alter or change any equipment.

If the glass stream was positioned in the center of the opening into the shear. We made swirls with no cut line showing.

If the glass stream was positioned just slightly to the side of the opening into the shear. So that the glass stream just touched or rubbed the side of the shear opening. We made patch ribbon type marbles with a single straight or slight curve cut line.

If the glass stream was positioned so that it hit slightly on the top edge of the shear opening. We made patch ribbon type marbles with two cut lines opposite each other.

We did not do this once or twice. But several times all throughout the 12hr. night shift.

Daves comment the next morning was how did you guys make those ? The put the 3/4 machine back under the tank and went back to making the routine 3/4 swirls.

[wvrons]

If you ever noticed at Jabo. Almost all if not every machine operator kept a pry bar at the machine near the shear end. They used this to reposition or realign the machine to the glass stream. To align the glass stream in the center of the shear opening. This was done every half hour maybe each hour or sometimes more often. Most of us has seen patch ribbon marbles from Jabo. But these were not the usual standard production. When the machine got out of alignement with the glass stream the operator ASAP would align the glass stream back in the center of the shear opening. Jabo's normal majority of production was swirl marbles. But many of us has seen Jabo patch ribbon marbles with a single cut line showing or double cut lines and swirls with a fold or cut line showing. The norm at Jabo was keep the glass stream centered as best possible. The norm production at Jabo was swirl type marbles with most not showing any cut line.

[wvrons]

Did the larger vintage companies have a operator dedicated to each machine in operation ?

[migbar]

In 1939 Peltier had 13 marble machines, with four operators dedicated to the running of each one.

[wvrons]

Good info. Four Jabo operators for each machine. I could easily see two but i am not sure what four would be doing ? Jabo is like most things today less human workers. Like Lowes today, try to find some help there. Find that 8 penny coated siinker nail on your own. They have it someplace in the building.

I can take some pictures of the above marbles that we made. But i am gone all of Saturday and most of Sunday.

When the glass stream just touched or rubbed the side of the shear opening. You could see the stream starting and trying to fold over on itself before hitting the shear plate or knife balde.

With the glass stream hitting on the top or edge of the shear opening. You could definatley see the stream make a fold over on itself before being cut.

With the glass stream falling a decent length to the shear opening,it was twisting on the way down. But as it hit the side of the shear opening,it stopped twisting immediately and began trying to fold over before it hit the shear plate or blade.

So still my same old three questions. #1 Why do the several WV swirl companies and Jabo marbles usually show no cut lines ? #2 Why do the larger vintage companies making patch ribbon type marbles usually always show cut lines ? #3 Why does CAC have some with no cut lines,some with one cut line and some with two cut lines ? This is for the majority of production over the years,not the fewer numbers of exceptions. How may Cat-eye type marbles show cut lines ?

[Steph]

I consider cat's eyes to have two "obvious" cut lines. They have an obvious top and bottom. Just hard to see the cutline because the base is clear.

[westcoast_dave]

I've never considered any jabo to be a true single seamed marble before, like the hand gathers. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the jabo's "appearance" of a single cut-line is actually two-seams completely folded? I suppose i'm guilty of always thinking in terms peltier, but I also see rainbo's with what looks like one cut-line, and is actually a complete fold.

Thanks for sharing the alox shear photos, hope you don't mind the side by side.

Could the alox shear also be the lawrence glass novelty shear of 33'? They look very similar and were made to dispense two marbles at a time, correct?

[mon]

If you ever noticed at Jabo. Almost all if not every machine operator kept a pry bar at the machine near the shear end. They used this to reposition or realign the machine to the glass stream. To align the glass stream in the center of the shear opening. This was done every half hour maybe each hour or sometimes more often. Most of us has seen patch ribbon marbles from Jabo. But these were not the usual standard production. When the machine got out of alignement with the glass stream the operator ASAP would align the glass stream back in the center of the shear opening. Jabo's normal majority of production was swirl marbles. But many of us has seen Jabo patch ribbon marbles with a single cut line showing or double cut lines and swirls with a fold or cut line showing. The norm at Jabo was keep the glass stream centered as best possible. The norm production at Jabo was swirl type marbles with most not showing any cut line.

So, do you think operators, running day in and day out at Peltier, knew of and made these adjustments with an intent of keeping their cutline design?

[lstmmrbls]

Very interesting, Thanks Ron great info but now I want to hit my head on the wall.. Just hard to get the brain to accept that with everything running at the same speed and the size of the stream not changing that an equal amount of glass goes through the shear whether it is a stream piled up to make a swirl or a single stream making a patch type. Brain getting ready to explode. Guess I just need to see it as I just can't get the mind open enough for it to make sense.

Unless it is possible things slowed down just a bit when the shear was not alligned perfectly??

[lstmmrbls]

Peltier had a much more complicated system. Separate tanks, separate streams, multiple orifices etc etc. When you are looking for a consistent pattern with different colored ribbons or even when it was the same color multiple ribbons , I can see how it could take several men for each set up. Apples to Oranges IMO

[wvrons]

_{Dave yes i agree the Alox shear is probably original Alley. I think most if not all the Alox machines were from Alley or maybe one from Ravenswood which was also Alley design. Nancy Frier's grandfather had close ties with Ravenswood and Alley. When her grandfather bought the first used machines here in WV. Seven expierenced marble workers left WV and went to St.Louis to help make the marbles. Nancy said they stayed with Alox and never came back to WV. Her grandfather bought the machines at about the time that Alley and Ravenswood switched over to the newer type faster machines.}

_{Alley was making a lot of one inch swirls in 1933 at Pennsboro and after that at the Pennsboro location. Also early at St.Marys. I am not sure if i have seen a one inch Alley from the earlier Sistersville location ?}

[wvrons]

I am so happy that i was not the only one to witness the changes in the marbles that night at Jabo. The marbles changed fast probaby in a minute or less,not more than two minutes. After we changed the position of how the glass stream entered the shear opening. Like i said we did it many times in 12 hrs and it was the same result every time. Galen take it easy on the walls. You will have to call a drywall man. I cannot tell or explain why but i know it happend over and over. I doubt that you will ever get the chance to see it happen. I am sure i will never get the chance again. But 12hrs was enough and a really great night shift. Maybe Griff will add anything i forgot or missed.

If i get some rest i will post some pictures of the marbles. I worked outside all day at the farm dismantling a 75-100 year old corn crib. Plus save all the old lumber as possible. It is all down and most of the lumber is stacked with the nails removed. All due to the help from Nola and Bill. Thanks !

[wvrons]

Yes with the Peltier set up it could require more manpower. But it is probably near the same marbles per minute which is the same amount of glass or indgrediants going in and coming out. The work or time required for adding indgrediants would not be double manpower. But on the exit side it would take more to monitor and keep in control. Lemons to Oranges IMO.

[lstmmrbls]

Wish I could have seen it Ron, and don't worry I already have the drywall guy on speed dial(LOL)

[ann]

I can envision one edge of the falling glass stream hanging up momentarily on one edge of the shear; and the weight of the glass and gravity continuing to pull the rest of the stream down through the shear, so that when the gob is lopped off = one seam. Or what looks like one seam. I suppose it would really be one seam "overwrting" another.

Ron describes what I was talking about here very clearly when he talks about the orientation of the stream to the center of the orifice . . .

I also think (just my opinion) that whether or not there were cutlines of any type on any particular type of marble was deliberate on the part of the makers. Maybe not initially, but they would quickly see the advantage of having a readily-identifiable :marker: on their marbles. Think how distinctive the Peltier and CAC slags were from Akro's, for example. And I can't help but believe it when considering that CAC did all of it, basically = they made both swirls and flames, and one- and two-seamed slags, the same for banded transparents, striped opaques, transparent swirls . . . all to make them more desirable to kids.

[ann]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the jabo's "appearance" of a single cut-line is actually two-seams completely folded? I suppose i'm guilty of always thinking in terms peltier, but I also see rainbo's with what looks like one cut-line, and is actually a complete fold.

I think the complete fold (the one seam "overwriting" another, as I mentioned earlier) applies to all of the machine-made marbles we think of and call "single-seam" -- some of the CAC slags, for example.

In that context, and technically,I agree that only hand-gathered marbles can truly have a single seam. But I also think we have another duck here . . . walking and quacking and swimming and flying. What else are we to call the machine-made marbles that look like they have a single seam, but a single-seam marble? Without writing an explanatory paragraph or a footnote each time? I dunno. I'm going to keep calling them single-seamed until a better alternative presents itself, I guess.

And like you said, Dave, every now and then you can catch that odd double-cut thingie -- I've seen it mostly on Pelts, two cut lines parallel to each other with something funny going on in between. There's a good photo example of it happening on an MK swirl in Gerald Witcher's article too. I need to take a closer look at my meager collection of CACs . . .

[westcoast_dave]

In my own collection, i like referring to the peltier double cut thingie as an "H" cut. But even the "H" cut shows two cut lines. I rarely see peltiers completely fold over but it does happen. Mibstified just posted a really neat one in the chameleon thread. To keep the two separated in my own brain, i think of the quacking ducks as single fold marbles.

[ann]

There! An H cut is perfect for it! Thankyouthankyou

And I just stumbled across a fun one on ebay . . .

[ann]

I like "single fold" for the quacking ducks too.

[ann]

So, do you think operators, running day in and day out at Peltier, knew of and made these adjustments with an intent of keeping their cutline design?

I'd bet on it. At least, they certainly tried to be relatively consistant with it.

As always, I could be wrong. But I don't think so in this case.

[mon]

Sorry I can't add anything to this thread but I will say this. I remember in grade school spinning marbles was the coolest, 2nd only to eating all my glue! The striped/marbles with cutlines were the best and reminded me of those do-dickies on a stick that spun in the wind. Slowly rolling them up the skewed floor in our kitchen and watching the design change as they rolled back towards me could entertain for hours. I wish that I could tell you more tales of my exciting childhood but I must go now and ride my stick horse in the dry dirt.....man can I kick up the dust!