Please Post Examples Of Cac Exotics

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon, your just bummed you sold yours (LOL)

Galen,

Your better than that.

No need to bait or inflame.

It isn't very difficult to see that Mon placed you and your opinions high on a pedestal at one time.

Obviously, he (and others) consider (or considered) you as a CA expert.

One could extrapolate that your opinion (and other factors) led him to liquidate his holdings.

Then Steph asks to see CA Exotic examples and BAM you have some in your collection.

WHAT? Wasn't Galen talking down these marbles and now he has some? Major case of whiplash for some.

You are very articulate and have a lot of knowledge.

I think it is fair for people to ask you to share.

Sometimes, I get the feeling you hold back, because you think that people will figure out the True Secrets and start making replicas.

Not a bad belief, but it does come off as "you have to be part of the club" to get the real skinny.

This and other forums are open to share and educate.

You have tons of knowledge, so please share freely.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mibcapper]

excellant thread, but as with the other threads on this ... still " opinions " and no real factual foundation for fake or real c.a."s. obvious questions ... records of the co. that did the work or city records of the work done, time's ... dates ... invoices ... in the " discovery " .. are basic questions that haven't been answered .... good opinions on both sides tho, but will always stay as it is now ... ?????? .... until " real " research is done, or, more than what has. don r. was a start .... secrets .. john m. .... when i entered this wonderful journey they were there ... and still exist. information is withheld to protect one's turf or ... MONEY ... which is usually the reason ... too bad. learning is what i'm after. i spend what i have ..... but not on the " exotics " ... didn't fit in hannibal, when jeff and rick h. walked in with them ... and don't now. john m. ... those are some outstanding examples you have in that box. superbbbbbbb ..... bill

[BuckEye]

This is from D. Rios (poplarhead) I believe. It was from a conversation we had long ago via email, I dont think he would mind and he stops by here. If there is an issue I will remove, but it is very insightful.

"Christensen agate marbles led me to investigate cambridge glass which is an elegant glass in the glass hobby as opposed to depression glass. within cambridge glass i found the opaque and transparent glass used in christensen agate marbles. i recommend a book named Colors in Cambridge Glass by the National Cambridge Collector's group.
there you will find the following opaque colors. dates when the color was first introduced are provided.

Azurite 1922 - a light blue
Ebony 1922 - black
Primrose 1923 - a yellow with "considerable warmth and volume...medium depth and not the least extreme in brilliance"
Helio 1923 - a lavendar color from the purple family
Carrara 1923 - a brilliant, full bodied white opaque. it shows opalescence at the edges or thinner sections when held to the light. the least common of the opaque colors
Jade 1924 - medium blue green opaque
Ivory 1924 - a light cream custard white opaque
Avocado 1927 thru 1928 only - a rich green opaque "that tends toward the yellow side of the green specturm"
Crown Tuscan 1932 - a flesh color

these are the opaque colors that were available to the Christensen Agate company in the form of cutlet. In fact by the time Christensen Agate started making marbles in Cambridge, they would have had access to opaque cutlet. There are a few more opaque colors that Cambridge introducted in the late 30s after the marble company went out of business and later after the war in the 50s when the glass factory reopened.

you will see the opaque colors listed on guineas. i don't think Crown Tuscan 1932 was used. there were also some experimental opaque colors like orange and a lighter green that are mentioned in the book. a date is not give for these colors but we see them on guineas.

i am not sure about opaque red. it is not mentioned in the Cambridge book at all. i think it might have been a blend on guineas. if you see a lot of opaque red on a guinea that should be a warning sign. also if the yellow on a guinea is dark and oily that should also be a warning sign. the primrose yellow was a soft lighter yellow. the electric yellow was bright and "electric"

nows lets talk a bit about transparent colors

Topaz 1923 - a yellow green often called vaseline.
Mulberry 1923 - a medium to deep shade of amethyst considered dull compared to the later amethyst color
Emerald 1923 - a light shade of green
Amber 1924 - a deep brown tone
Madeira 1929 advertised for one year - a light golden shade halfway between canary yellow and deep amber
Cobalt Blue 1 1920s - a medium light blue
Peach Blo 1925 - a soft pink with "warmth and sparkle"
Cobalt Blue 2 1925 - 1926 - slightly darker than Cobalt Blue 1 tends to have a gathering effect shows florescence under black light
Ritz Blue 1928 - 1930s - very similar to Cobalt Blue 2 but does not floresce under a black light
Bluebell 1926 used for only a short time - a darker transparant blue with "considerable sparkle"
Willow Blue 1928 - a sky blue
Gold Krystol 1929 - light yellow with no amber tint
Carmen 1931 - a rich full bodied red
Amethyst 1931 - a burgundy or deep amethyst
Royal Blue 1931 - a deep blue
Forest Green 1931 - "a soft, cool, dark shade of green that tends toward yellow"
Heatherbloom 1931 - 1935 - in natural light a pale orchid or lavendar, in florescent light light blue or gray

There are others but they came after the Christensen Agate Company went out of business.

Lets talk about the transparent colors used as a matrix for guineas. They used a clear glass. They used an amber glass that could have been Amber or Madeira. Their cobalt blue is dark. It might have been Royal Blue. All other Cambridge blues are much lighter even the ones they called Cobalt Blue. I really don't how much access Christensen Agate had to the Cambridge transparent colors introduced in 1931. These were new to Cambridge and i am sure by then the marbles were not selling and production was coming to a halt. You don't see Carmen, Amethyst, or Heatherbloom in their marbles. So I don't think the green and blue that you do see was either Royal Blue or Forest Green. I think they made their own dark cobalt blue and green. They were also making electric colors which i think is the height of their contribution to the marble world. These include electric colored slags and the opaque electric orange, yellow, and green used on striped opaques and striped transparents. Also one has to prize their peach slag which was made with Peach Blo and white opaque glass. The glass chemist, Fiedler, must have known the glass chemistry used in Czech glass. Thats how he knew how to do guineas and electric colors.

When you think of Christensen Agate marbles you must wonder about their production consistency. Based on what we know of original packaging those marbles that could be produced with some consistency seem to be in the packages. I think there was a lot of experimentation. How many marbles were given away or tossed because they didn't meet production objectives? When you look at a box of Shamrock marbles you love the variation. I am not sure Christensen Agate wanted to fill a box with that much variation. Keep in mind kids of the day prized the lowly stone agate marble. Akro did so many things to reproduce the stone agate effect in their glass marbles.


My advice to collectors is too learn the Cambridge colors. Buy one piece of Cambridge glass for each opaque and transparent color. When you look at Christensen Agate marbles look for those colors. Look for the electric colors. Look for cutlines. Books are great but seeing real Christensen Agate marbles with your eyes provides a lot of education. Whether undergound or in a jar somewhere they are out there. If you run into me say hello.

OPAQUE COLORS

#1 white, #2 black, #3 red,#4 dk. brown, #43 pink, #44 lt. brown,

#5 tan, #6 orange, #7 peach salmon, #8 ruddy salmon, #9 true green,

#10 lt. green, #11 lime green, #12 olive green, #13 yellow, #14 purple,

#15 lavender, #16 grey, #17 blue, #18 baby blue #46 copper, 47 deep wine, 49 lt grey, 50 seafoam green ELECTRIC COLORS #19 el. yellow, #20 el. orange, #21 el. red, #22 el. green

TRANSPARENT COLORS #23 clear, #24 red, #25 lt. amber, #26 dk. amber,

#27 butterscotch, #28 peach, #29 apricot, #30 green that fluoreses, #32 lt.

green, #33 aqua, #34 extremely lt.blue, #35 lt. blue, #36 cobalt blue,

#37 dark blue, #38 maglight blue, #39 amethyst, #40 purple, #41 lavender,

#42 yellow, #45 orange, 48 olive green, 51 turqouise"

Enjoy.

Craig

[Shamrock Marbles]

Craig,

Wow! Thank you for sharing that information.

So, one of the check boxes you mark off on a marble is if all the colors cross reference to known CA and/or Cambridge colors?

Would you be willing to share your other observations that move you into the "comfort zone"?

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[BuckEye]

You have to get the book, learn the colors, it's easy to follow along with the above info. The hard part is seeing a large piece of Cambridge and imagining a thin stripe or a splotch of a specific color. I have a strong memory for these things so I have learned the colors. I then saved probably over 700 pics of cac ST. and SOs, grouped them, learned them and compared colors back to Cambridge. Like I said there aren't really any one offs. It's all there. You have to want to do the leg work. I have a large collection of cac cullet. Rare, weird stuff. I collect cac mainly and put lots of hours in. The answer isn't simple, it's a combo of these things, the glass, the shades. Think of all the crazy Akros that were dug. Experiments. That's how I look at these. Like I said some don't look right and the colors are off. 95% look good to me. I'm sure someone made a few to look like cac, but if you collect cacs you can spot the fakes. There are a few. Someone tried to capitalize and a story was woven etc etc. It's like if you collect handmades, can you spot a contemp? I hope so...

Ps, I have seen the 1931 colors in cac after comparing....which leads me to believe that these were made at the very end of their marble production....maybe they were trying of new techniques and color combos. IMHO HG first, then swirls, then ST,SO....

[Shamrock Marbles]

Craig,

Thank you for your insight.

The reference you had to Don Rios as Popularhead had me a bit puzzled.

Early posts from Popularhead/Don seemed to question the authenticity of the CA exotics.

I went back and found a post from a Mike Rios (brother to Don Rios?) and his sign-in name is "theblueray".

Here is a post from Mike Rios (theblueray) from September 7, 2009:

"I have been reading this topic with interest and wanted to weigh in. Iam Mike Rios. My twin brother and i have an extensive C.A. collection put together mainly before this new find. We were at the Columbus show in 2002 a year after these marbles came to the market. Bill Tow actually obtained first pick as Les handled the initial selling (2001). Marblealan has a couple of these marbles up for auction now on the bay at 1400 each and they both have bids. Anyway back to the story,by 2002 some of the people present at the initial find were coming to the show in the evening and meeting with several C.A. collectors like Tow, Streme, Fung, us and others. Brian Esteep had a nice assortment with the largest examples including the transluscent red with yellow tear drops. The story was a water line had broken on the street where the old plant was located and when the backhoe crew was digging they churned up pieces of wood and hundreds of marbles. some local Cambridge collectors and others started helping themselves. This is an example of why you need an archeologist when something like this happens.(Brian Graham) We don't know if this was a crate or a floor?

Now the point I wish to make is when you look at the cover of Baumann's 4th edition (not 3rd by the way) the marbles pictured are not the ones from that find from 2000. If you want to see mibs from that find you have to look no further than the two on the bay now, block's C.A. book (Collecting Early Machine-made Marbles the M.f. Christensen and son Company and Christensen Agate company) page 112 courtesy of Peter Sharrer, page 115 courtesy of Kenn Fung and Rich Stremme; page 119 courtesy of Bill Tow and page 124 courtesy of Kenn Fung to name a few examples.

I would have to speculate that once the cache of this find was exhausted the artists have gone to work to keep up with the demand. I totally agree with Bo about a lot of these probably being modern. This does not disparage Brian Esteep. he may have some real and some fakes. It is interesting that Morphy's is including one of the tear drop yellow on transluscent red from the find in their fall auction. Now those were around in 2000-2002."

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Steph]

(Poplarhead is a different Don)

[BuckEye]

I'm not sure of their opinions on these marbles, that conversation was more as to guineas and Cambridge color in general. He was helping me out as a newby to learn colors first. I'm actually rereading the colors in Cambridge glass II now lol. Opinions change all the time. I wish if someone thinks they know who the artist is who made these would pm me if they don't want to leave it in the open as libel. That was probably 10 years ago so I might have the Dons mixed up....sorry poplar head

[Shamrock Marbles]

This is from D. Rios (poplarhead) I believe. It was from a conversation we had long ago via email, I dont think he would mind and he stops by here. If there is an issue I will remove, but it is very insightful.

"Christensen agate marbles led me to investigate cambridge glass which is an elegant glass in the glass hobby as opposed to depression glass. within cambridge glass i found the opaque and transparent glass used in christensen agate marbles. i recommend a book named Colors in Cambridge Glass by the National Cambridge Collector's group.

there you will find the following opaque colors. dates when the color was first introduced are provided.

Azurite 1922 - a light blue

Ebony 1922 - black

Primrose 1923 - a yellow with "considerable warmth and volume...medium depth and not the least extreme in brilliance"

Helio 1923 - a lavendar color from the purple family

Carrara 1923 - a brilliant, full bodied white opaque. it shows opalescence at the edges or thinner sections when held to the light. the least common of the opaque colors

Jade 1924 - medium blue green opaque

Ivory 1924 - a light cream custard white opaque

Avocado 1927 thru 1928 only - a rich green opaque "that tends toward the yellow side of the green specturm"

Crown Tuscan 1932 - a flesh color

these are the opaque colors that were available to the Christensen Agate company in the form of cutlet. In fact by the time Christensen Agate started making marbles in Cambridge, they would have had access to opaque cutlet. There are a few more opaque colors that Cambridge introducted in the late 30s after the marble company went out of business and later after the war in the 50s when the glass factory reopened.

you will see the opaque colors listed on guineas. i don't think Crown Tuscan 1932 was used. there were also some experimental opaque colors like orange and a lighter green that are mentioned in the book. a date is not give for these colors but we see them on guineas.

i am not sure about opaque red. it is not mentioned in the Cambridge book at all. i think it might have been a blend on guineas. if you see a lot of opaque red on a guinea that should be a warning sign. also if the yellow on a guinea is dark and oily that should also be a warning sign. the primrose yellow was a soft lighter yellow. the electric yellow was bright and "electric"

nows lets talk a bit about transparent colors

Topaz 1923 - a yellow green often called vaseline.

Mulberry 1923 - a medium to deep shade of amethyst considered dull compared to the later amethyst color

Emerald 1923 - a light shade of green

Amber 1924 - a deep brown tone

Madeira 1929 advertised for one year - a light golden shade halfway between canary yellow and deep amber

Cobalt Blue 1 1920s - a medium light blue

Peach Blo 1925 - a soft pink with "warmth and sparkle"

Cobalt Blue 2 1925 - 1926 - slightly darker than Cobalt Blue 1 tends to have a gathering effect shows florescence under black light

Ritz Blue 1928 - 1930s - very similar to Cobalt Blue 2 but does not floresce under a black light

Bluebell 1926 used for only a short time - a darker transparant blue with "considerable sparkle"

Willow Blue 1928 - a sky blue

Gold Krystol 1929 - light yellow with no amber tint

Carmen 1931 - a rich full bodied red

Amethyst 1931 - a burgundy or deep amethyst

Royal Blue 1931 - a deep blue

Forest Green 1931 - "a soft, cool, dark shade of green that tends toward yellow"

Heatherbloom 1931 - 1935 - in natural light a pale orchid or lavendar, in florescent light light blue or gray

There are others but they came after the Christensen Agate Company went out of business.

Lets talk about the transparent colors used as a matrix for guineas. They used a clear glass. They used an amber glass that could have been Amber or Madeira. Their cobalt blue is dark. It might have been Royal Blue. All other Cambridge blues are much lighter even the ones they called Cobalt Blue. I really don't how much access Christensen Agate had to the Cambridge transparent colors introduced in 1931. These were new to Cambridge and i am sure by then the marbles were not selling and production was coming to a halt. You don't see Carmen, Amethyst, or Heatherbloom in their marbles. So I don't think the green and blue that you do see was either Royal Blue or Forest Green. I think they made their own dark cobalt blue and green. They were also making electric colors which i think is the height of their contribution to the marble world. These include electric colored slags and the opaque electric orange, yellow, and green used on striped opaques and striped transparents. Also one has to prize their peach slag which was made with Peach Blo and white opaque glass. The glass chemist, Fiedler, must have known the glass chemistry used in Czech glass. Thats how he knew how to do guineas and electric colors.

When you think of Christensen Agate marbles you must wonder about their production consistency. Based on what we know of original packaging those marbles that could be produced with some consistency seem to be in the packages. I think there was a lot of experimentation. How many marbles were given away or tossed because they didn't meet production objectives? When you look at a box of Shamrock marbles you love the variation. I am not sure Christensen Agate wanted to fill a box with that much variation. Keep in mind kids of the day prized the lowly stone agate marble. Akro did so many things to reproduce the stone agate effect in their glass marbles.

My advice to collectors is too learn the Cambridge colors. Buy one piece of Cambridge glass for each opaque and transparent color. When you look at Christensen Agate marbles look for those colors. Look for the electric colors. Look for cutlines. Books are great but seeing real Christensen Agate marbles with your eyes provides a lot of education. Whether undergound or in a jar somewhere they are out there. If you run into me say hello.

OPAQUE COLORS

#1 white, #2 black, #3 red,#4 dk. brown, #43 pink, #44 lt. brown,

#5 tan, #6 orange, #7 peach salmon, #8 ruddy salmon, #9 true green,

#10 lt. green, #11 lime green, #12 olive green, #13 yellow, #14 purple,

#15 lavender, #16 grey, #17 blue, #18 baby blue #46 copper, 47 deep wine, 49 lt grey, 50 seafoam green ELECTRIC COLORS #19 el. yellow, #20 el. orange, #21 el. red, #22 el. green

TRANSPARENT COLORS #23 clear, #24 red, #25 lt. amber, #26 dk. amber,

#27 butterscotch, #28 peach, #29 apricot, #30 green that fluoreses, #32 lt.

green, #33 aqua, #34 extremely lt.blue, #35 lt. blue, #36 cobalt blue,

#37 dark blue, #38 maglight blue, #39 amethyst, #40 purple, #41 lavender,

#42 yellow, #45 orange, 48 olive green, 51 turqouise"

Enjoy.

Craig

I'm not sure of their opinions on these marbles, that conversation was more as to guineas and Cambridge color in general. He was helping me out as a newby to learn colors first. I'm actually rereading the colors in Cambridge glass II now lol. Opinions change all the time. I wish if someone thinks they know who the artist is who made these would pm me if they don't want to leave it in the open as libel. That was probably 10 years ago so I might have the Dons mixed up....sorry poplar head

Craig,

I'm confused.

Are you stating that the Don Rios email was from 10 years ago and only for the identification for guineas (not exotics)?

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[BuckEye]

Yes that long email was specifically on cac/Cambridge glass linkage. How it is applied to different cac types besides guineas is up to the reader I suppose. But I remember that email originally asking about Guineas

[Shamrock Marbles]

Craig,

Okay.

I just want to point out that in Don's email he references a "box of Shamrock marbles".

"When you look at a box of Shamrock marbles you love the variation. I am not sure Christensen Agate wanted to fill a box with that much variation."

There is only one photo of a box of Shamrock's and it was Craig Snider's from around June 2008 (same one posted on this thread).

Assuming Craig S. doesn't have a time machine, I would suspect his first public post of the picture was around that time or thereafter.

That would put the email no more than 7 years ago. Time has a way of getting away from us!

There was only one guinea type in the box of 25 and it was a red/yellow.

His point was more directed to the variation in a box.

The argument that a series (multiples of one type) is proof that these are real.

Look at the box of Craig's.

You will see four (4) marbles from a run of about a dozen [L-R & T-B: #1, #9, #18 & #20].

You can see that these came from one run, but I can do that run again if I wanted.

He had first pick of the litter just before Marble Crazy, I told him to leave some for others to buy.

Marbles #5, #6 and #21 are same runs.

Marbles #4 & #7 are same runs.

Marbles #12 & #19 are same runs.

I make either one (1) or a dozen (12) of a style or color combo.

Why only one? I didn't like how it turned out.

Why more than one? Liked how the first turned out and I thought I could sell them well.

I don't believe that my thinking would be any different than others if they create products.

Honestly, I've gone back to make more that sold well.

Also, made color combos that people suggested.

"Boy, that would be cool if you had a green base with red, blue and orange stripes."

If I new I would see them at the next show, then I made them!

Not rocket science.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[machinemades]

Craig,

I am thinking on your breakdown of CA marble production. First HG, than swirls and last SO/ST. So where does Guineas fit? They have cut lines, so does SO/ST marbles. Then we are assuming the common swirls came before Guineas showed up. Of course we need to insert the flame swirls that are part of swirl period? If Guineas are HG, then ST/SO are also HG since they are similar in construction. I am thinking flames were at the same time period as Guineas and ST/SO and earlier than the common swirls that are produced to make money. Remember we are talking about a very short time period in history.

[Shamrock Marbles]

Here are the manufacturer's names I used in the above marbles (Left to Right and Top to Bottom):
1. Moretti 2. Moretti 3. Spectrum 4. Moretti 5. Moretti
6. Moretti 7. Moretti 8. Moretti 9. Moretti 10. Spectrum
11. Spectrum 12. Moretti 13. Moretti 14. Moretti 15. Moretti
16. Bullseye 17. Moretti 18. Moretti 19. Moretti 20. Moretti
21. Moretti 22. Moretti 23. Moretti 24. Spectrum 25. Spectrum

#16 was a very, very early type.
See Alan's photo for other examples.

Sincerely,
John McCormick
"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Below is a canvas of a clear base ST, with quite a bit of embedded debris, that I speculate would have been due to refractory debris or coal fly ash entrained in the combustion gases that came in contact with the molten glass in the furnace. Wouldn't the presence of embedded refractory on the surface of the marble serve to date the marble manufacture to an era when refractory lined and/or coal fired furnaces were employed? Would you expect to see the same kind of surface debris on marbles with glass fired in modern day electric of natural gas furnaces?

Mibstified,

Have you had the dark elements on the surface of that marble analyzed? Is it really coal?

The surface embed of refractory is quite common even for today. (Refractory can also be found deep into the glass matrix.)

Someone pointed to me that fire brick comes from the tank and would not be found in modern torchworked marbles.

During a demo, I reached over to my annealing kiln and broke a chunk off of firebrick.

Crumbled the chunk into bits and placed atop the machine.

Heated up a gather and dropped it into the machine.

Took my hand and swiped the firebrick bits into the rollers, while the glass was still molten.

Voilà! Embeds just like the real thing.

Now, I don't know if you could extract debris from a marble to determine a date.

There may not be enough material to analyze.

Interesting thought!

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Let me post an Interesting parallel. A couple years ago no one had heard of peltier citrus marbles. There was a huge cache was found by Steve Smith I think. Maybe like 500/1000 of them. They slowly started leaking out and people could obviously recognize them as pelt, especially the pelts "gurus". No one questioned them, but where did he find them all, maybe he made them in his basement. He could have not told anyone where he found that big cache and let them out one by one. Fact is that would have never worked because they are not as esthetically pleasing as CaCs. Yes, some citruses were found in the wild but so were some "exotics"....see Hansels pics. I collect marbles, rarely do I sell them my higher end ones so I don't care who thinks they are real or not. I like them. I have my reasons. Furthermore, these CACs were not one offs. If you really study pics of them and I have many several hundred saved pics of only CAC striped opaques and transparents there are definitely Types and they are very specific. See my post about the Three Sisters last month. Three "exotics". Three different locations. Two out of the wild.......I think one has furnace debris, out of round just like most other CaCs. Hey, no one buy pelt citruses or novas, they are tainted and not real. Do your own research and draw conclusions. I'll send you 700 pics of CaCs you can study and compare colors and then get back to me instead of drawing blind conclusions. I'll send you the color study done by I think Don Rios of Cambridge glass and cac colors. Everything matches up. Go over old posts. The info is there.

Craig,

Can you talk about the ones found in the wild?

I mean, did you find a rare CA ST/SO exotic in a $20 jar in Zanesville?

Was it from a show walk-in and picked up for $10?

Maybe a dealer had it in their pistol case for $800. When asked where they got it, their story was what?

With respect to the "three sisters", I guess with a little "detective" work, you could find who the original owners were.

Some of the original "Road & Tunnel Slags" were picked up in the wild.

That added to their vintage validity, until reality came.

Wouldn't be hard to roll into an antique shop with a box of salted marbles and a story.

I got these from my grandfather, just buried him in Cambridge and I need to sell them to buy some gas to get home.

Will you give me twenty bucks?

Lickety-split cash transaction and you're out the door.

Seed planted.

Mark your calendar and count the days before it turns up at a show or on the boards.

Sit back and laugh with your buddies about those smart city slickers with their degrees and money.

Drive up and down I-77 and back and forth on I-70 and visit the shops.

Plenty of flea markets to move merchandise.

Just thoughts.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Let me post an Interesting parallel. A couple years ago no one had heard of peltier citrus marbles. There was a huge cache was found by Steve Smith I think. Maybe like 500/1000 of them. They slowly started leaking out and people could obviously recognize them as pelt, especially the pelts "gurus". No one questioned them, but where did he find them all, maybe he made them in his basement. He could have not told anyone where he found that big cache and let them out one by one. Fact is that would have never worked because they are not as esthetically pleasing as CaCs. Yes, some citruses were found in the wild but so were some "exotics"....see Hansels pics. I collect marbles, rarely do I sell them my higher end ones so I don't care who thinks they are real or not. I like them. I have my reasons. Furthermore, these CACs were not one offs. If you really study pics of them and I have many several hundred saved pics of only CAC striped opaques and transparents there are definitely Types and they are very specific. See my post about the Three Sisters last month. Three "exotics". Three different locations. Two out of the wild.......I think one has furnace debris, out of round just like most other CaCs. Hey, no one buy pelt citruses or novas, they are tainted and not real. Do your own research and draw conclusions. I'll send you 700 pics of CaCs you can study and compare colors and then get back to me instead of drawing blind conclusions. I'll send you the color study done by I think Don Rios of Cambridge glass and cac colors. Everything matches up. Go over old posts. The info is there.

Craig,

I really appreciate what you have shared so far.

The funny thing is that this thread was started by Steph to collect photos for her CA Exotic album.

Since you offered, do you think you could set up a DropBox account and let Steph download the 700 photos for research?

I would hazard a guess that some of those photos are from people that don't want them shared, but maybe you could cull those out?

(Also, Lou has pinned a thread about Copyright usage and research/educational purposes.)

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[BuckEye]

So maybe 7 yrs ago? Sure, it was copy and pasted into a folder so I that was an estimate. There are 135 pics here

http://marbleconnection.com/gallery/album/289-christensen-agates-cacs-by-marblealan-mostly/

She can start with that, I did.

[1Alleynut]

sorry about the blurry photos, here's a couple,DB.

I wanted to add that this box set was purchased by a good friend of mine here in Colorado a few years ago at the Las Vegas Marble Show, he paid an arm, a leg, and a few other body parts for it, to me in hand and I'm no Cac expert they looked good (real) Authentic, but then some of the color combos are really different and would fall into the (exotic) catagory. I've heard many stories about the Supposed dig where as these marbles were unearthed at the Cambidge site, and always wonder since I've only collected marbles since 1988 why I and other much more expierenced collectors have never found one or any old/vintage/ antique lot of marbles in which we have all seen are fair share of over the years, that are in played with condition, maybe a few flea bites, or a fracture, pocket ware, chips, dings, moons, or any other visible flaw, they all seemed to show up absolutely drop dead wet mint gorgeous marbles, and these were all dug???? It seems over the years besides these the Cambrige site produced some fairly nice dug specimans, as well as the Akro, and Alley Agate sites, but the precentage of Flawless wet mint marbles is small to say the least, and why would any employee at that point in time take some of the most incredible beautiful (perfect) marbles and just throw them in the pit with other refuge to be burried?? Instead of at least just taking them home to there kids to have for free, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the fact that they are all Perfect Marbles for being (dug) is just a wee bit over the top in believeabuilty, so it makes me really wonder on this box set which came with a (certificate of authenticity) can even be proved without a shadow of a doubt to all be the (real deal) DB

[mibcapper]

I wanted to add that this box set was purchased by a good friend of mine here in Colorado a few years ago at the Las Vegas Marble Show, he paid an arm, a leg, and a few other body parts for it, to me in hand and I'm no Cac expert they looked good (real) Authentic, but then some of the color combos are really different and would fall into the (exotic) catagory. I've heard many stories about the Supposed dig where as these marbles were unearthed at the Cambidge site, and always wonder since I've only collected marbles since 1988 why I and other much more expierenced collectors have never found one or any old/vintage/ antique lot of marbles in which we have all seen are fair share of over the years, that are in played with condition, maybe a few flea bites, or a fracture, pocket ware, chips, dings, moons, or any other visible flaw, they all seemed to show up absolutely drop dead wet mint gorgeous marbles, and these were all dug???? It seems over the years besides these the Cambrige site produced some fairly nice dug specimans, as well as the Akro, and Alley Agate sites, but the precentage of Flawless wet mint marbles is small to say the least, and why would any employee at that point in time take some of the most incredible beautiful (perfect) marbles and just throw them in the pit with other refuge to be burried?? Instead of at least just taking them home to there kids to have for free, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the fact that they are all Perfect Marbles for being (dug) is just a wee bit over the top in believeabuilty, so it makes me really wonder on this box set which came with a (certificate of authenticity) can even be proved without a shadow of a doubt to all be the (real deal) DB

be real nice dave to see that box ..... bill ......... still sitting in ... loveland .... lol .... .....

[manddrakes]

I wanted to add that this box set was purchased by a good friend of mine here in Colorado a few years ago at the Las Vegas Marble Show, he paid an arm, a leg, and a few other body parts for it, to me in hand and I'm no Cac expert they looked good (real) Authentic, but then some of the color combos are really different and would fall into the (exotic) catagory. I've heard many stories about the Supposed dig where as these marbles were unearthed at the Cambidge site, and always wonder since I've only collected marbles since 1988 why I and other much more expierenced collectors have never found one or any old/vintage/ antique lot of marbles in which we have all seen are fair share of over the years, that are in played with condition, maybe a few flea bites, or a fracture, pocket ware, chips, dings, moons, or any other visible flaw, they all seemed to show up absolutely drop dead wet mint gorgeous marbles, and these were all dug???? It seems over the years besides these the Cambrige site produced some fairly nice dug specimans, as well as the Akro, and Alley Agate sites, but the precentage of Flawless wet mint marbles is small to say the least, and why would any employee at that point in time take some of the most incredible beautiful (perfect) marbles and just throw them in the pit with other refuge to be burried?? Instead of at least just taking them home to there kids to have for free, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the fact that they are all Perfect Marbles for being (dug) is just a wee bit over the top in believeabuilty, so it makes me really wonder on this box set which came with a (certificate of authenticity) can even be proved without a shadow of a doubt to all be the (real deal) DB

Exactly... Well there's also the other story of them being found in a pipe that was dig up at the Cambridge site. I guess they flushed them... Wasn't this a time when the out house was popular?

[lstmmrbls]

My last thought on the subject, Believe they are real or do not. Get some for yourself, study and examine them under a good well lit microscope. compare them to other accepted CACs. Get some of Johns marbles, some of Mark Christensens' and any other good reproductions you can find. Study these and compare them. Draw your own conclusions and go with that. No amount of discussion or internet pictures are going to do anything to convince anyone one way or the other and I don't need to convince anyone.

Yes, I have done all the above

[1Alleynut]

The box is on page # 1 of this post, the cardboard 25 count, the wood box below has a few as well, as far as purchasing some to study Galen, you could just send me a few Real ones, I'll study them and send them right back, I'll get much better photos the next time I visit my friends house and break out the loop, I have a pretty good Idea of what differences are, Very great of John to throw down his timeline and information, I knew after abit this post would blow up, many different opinions on these specific marbles over the years, DB.

[mon]

No amount of discussion or internet pictures are going to do anything to convince anyone one way or the other and I don't need to convince anyone.

Yes, I have done all the above

Before I completely bite my tongue off.......

If you and Craig really have a relationship with the finder(s) you can:

1) Narrow down the multiple stories to ONE!

2) The finder(s) can not be that concerned about getting caught/in trouble ....cause control has been lost in telling one of you let alone two (and who knows how many more).

3) Now, from one story comes a myriad of possibilities that can have or not have merit! The horse has risen......

But, both refuses to give the possible "nut cracker" and claim it will and can never be solved.....kinda weird is it not?

I believe they like the dark.......because they have no light! imho fwiw

[Shamrock Marbles]

So maybe 7 yrs ago? Sure, it was copy and pasted into a folder so I that was an estimate. There are 135 pics here

http://marbleconnection.com/gallery/album/289-christensen-agates-cacs-by-marblealan-mostly/

She can start with that, I did.

Craig,

Thank you! That picture album is a great start. Thanks for the pointer.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

My last thought on the subject, Believe they are real or do not. Get some for yourself, study and examine them under a good well lit microscope. compare them to other accepted CACs. Get some of Johns marbles, some of Mark Christensens' and any other good reproductions you can find. Study these and compare them. Draw your own conclusions and go with that. No amount of discussion or internet pictures are going to do anything to convince anyone one way or the other and I don't need to convince anyone.

Yes, I have done all the above

Galen,

Thank you, but can you educate us what you are looking for and why you need a microscope?

If you have developed a CA authentication protocol, can you share it with us?

I mean, is it really only going to be you and a few others that are part of the illuminati?

I can understand if you have some proprietary techniques you wish to monetize.

So, is this the genesis of Galen's Authentication Services (G.A.S.)?

Back to the microscope...

I don't think 99.99% of all marble transactions are consummated with a check under the scope.

Lighting in these hotel rooms is horrid at best.

People chuckled at Bo with his 40X scope.

Did Jenkins have micro-engraved on his forming wheels, "Made in USA by the Christensen Agate Corporation"?

Is this what you are seeing imprinted on to each marble under magnification?

You have so much to share with the community.

It is a shame you don't share.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"