Please Post Examples Of Cac Exotics

[ann]

Perfect sense!

And fun, following along.

Going home to an evening with my guinea halves . . .

[Shamrock Marbles]

Ann,

Can you see why one of the thoughtful speculations is that the exotics were really hand-gathered color compatibility tests with no production intentions?

Hence, low quantities and no cullet?

I mean, it seems that there are more guinea fragments than there are known complete guineas.

If you were having a high failure rate, wouldn't you try to understand the reasons and mitigate the cause?

But nobody has floated this as part of the sales program. (At least, not yet.)

Enjoy your halves tonight!

Tell me if you see any bubbles.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[BuckEye]

Btw, there may be some confusion. The marble halves I posted are not mine, that was a pick from a thread several years ago I saved. I think Clyde actually took those if I'm not mistaken. I didn't get those from someone at ground zero at the dig where all the marbles were found.

[ann]

Can you see why one of the thoughtful speculations is that the exotics were really hand-gathered color compatibility tests with no production intentions?

Hence, low quantities and no cullet?

I mean, it seems that there are more guinea fragments than there are known complete guineas.

If you were having a high failure rate, wouldn't you try to understand the reasons and mitigate the cause?

Enjoy your halves tonight!

Tell me if you see any bubbles.

Yes -- I can see why thoughtful speculation could see the exotics as color compatibility tests, and the thoughts that can follow from that . . . very, very interesting.

And it's been a while since I spent an evening with my (2 cobalt, 2 amber, 2 colorless) guinea halves. It was much more educational this time. Saw exactly what you were talking about with the frit at the edge. And the over-gathering . . .

Yes, bubbles. Under 10X very tiny ones, not in clumps or trails, but distributed singly here and there in the clear base. Had to experiment with backlighting to see them, especially in the cobalt halves (one of which is pretty fractured), but once I did I had no trouble identifying them in the others. One of the cobalt halves also had what looked under magnification like a huge bubble, but when I took the loupe away it was a bit smaller than the head of the proverbial pin.

Also looked for and found similar tiny bubbles (and a few big ones) in my CAC slags. From the same process, maybe? Minus the frit, I mean? Fun to see new things in old marbles!

[mon]

I've searched high and low but can't find any air bubbles....oh, maybe one that could have lead to its demise....lol

[ann]

Mon, I think I have half of the other half of that!

[mon]

Do you want to go into business together?

Heck, we can super glue any akro pieces onto our guinea halves and call them Arnold's transitionals.......he was thinking about his upcoming move to akro and started to experiment. He made these sparkler/guinea marbles and hid them inside Cambridge's water tower (that's why they are so clean and shiny). Why are they glued, some may ask.....Arnold was deep into horses that CAC used on gambling side.... back then, old horses = glue. So he needed to use and make money on all that glue....how can I use glue in marbles...wha-la On the marketing side, if children knuckled down with His Marbles, they would simply fall apart at the glue and he was going to sell "Trigger Quick Draw" glue sticks that came in a little holster. His slogan was.."Come on kids and pull the Trigger" Folks, these are rare!

Ann, don't worry if this makes no sense......ya know? mon babbling

[ann]

It makes perfect sense. Which I guess means I should worry.

I want to be Vice President. You can be President.

[mon]

All kidding aside..... I'll bet some people that are holding these wish we would shut up and pray things will go back the way it was before this thread! I have been in those shoes!!!!!! It is very sad that it has lasted this long and the sales just continue! I have yet to find a good explanation from the side of "real". Some that are high on the rung are in way over their heads and can't do anything but stick to the story! They have sold them....even gave out a certificate of authenticity that surprised the crap out of me! It's a big disgrace to all that sat on their thumbs in the beginning. I hope no one will ever stand by and witness this slipping back to being a fact, not a group of known marbles and not even an important name! Shame, shame. shame! mon

Also, I wish I could make it right and take that pit from your stomach but I can't! I also know it could be a major set back in your life.....what to do......To my defense, I tried the same then as now to get answers FWIW!

[mon]

Sitting out on the back porch....oh what a beautiful night here....I can hear the moth balls being scattered around this Exotic thread like all the ones before. I hope everyone takes in account that all of this becomes sediment just like the seasons we live through. The future will excavate through these layers and will have more ways of determining the truth. I hope everyone is content with how the future will see them.....for it will be forever how we will be seen, by those who care. They won't count your money and they will give two shits if you was liked but they will take note of your honesty, desires an agenda. Thanks to ALL OF YOU THAT OFFERED TO POST. mon

[lstmmrbls]

Nothing posted on this thread or any of the many related threads is going to have any effect at all on how the CACs get traded and bought and sold at any of the next shows I go to, on ebay or any other auctions IMO

[mon]

ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IS JUST MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!

Galen...post #6 in the first exotic link page 1

Having been in the antique business for years it is one of the number one rules that if it is too good to be real it probably isn't and I had a very knowledgeable person once tell me, If it wasn't then-it probably isn't now. Meaning, something that is only known in recent times probably isn't old. I own 2 they are beautiful marbles but I am not spending big money on them. Until some one shows me some in original packaging or some very clear pictures of some taken before 1990.

Galen this and Galen that...all over this board...and all I can find is that he is a flim-flam-man! Did you get your clear pictures or original packaging? Don't say you didn't have any to look at with your Hubble Telescope cause you say you have 2. You continue to saw off your own legs and believe/trust me ...people see it! C'mon back-trackin-willy....start bull crapping some more reasons...ya know...how old you are....get confused...bad pics.....tired.....and the list goes on an on

You had won...no more damage control for you and Craig....but you have to poke!

You just don't know when to shut up.....you shut up when tangled in your own web but come out to rub dirt in the eyes of people who care...thought you was going to enjoy their beauty? Now, we will see..I'm going to ring every bell and scream from the top of every mountain to let it be known!

Steph, I beg you not to delete or remove..or lock up this thread..this needs to be seen! again, IMHO! MON

[mon]

bump!

[manddrakes]

Sitting out on the back porch....oh what a beautiful night here....I can hear the moth balls being scattered around this Exotic thread like all the ones before. I hope everyone takes in account that all of this becomes sediment just like the seasons we live through. The future will excavate through these layers and will have more ways of determining the truth. I hope everyone is content with how the future will see them.....for it will be forever how we will seen, by those who care. They won't count your money and they will give two shits if you was liked but they will take note of your honesty, desires an agenda. Thanks to ALL OF YOU THAT OFFERED TO POST. mon

I agree with you! We all need to think long and hard, well I personally think one only needs to use common since! These marbles where never made by Christensen and I have had in depth discussions with several collectors in my network of friends and to be honest not one of them would take a chance.... Mon is correct lets get to the bottom of this! The truth will surface! It just a matter of time... Keep up the good fight my friend!

[manddrakes]

ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IS JUST MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!

Galen...post #6 in the first exotic link page 1

Having been in the antique business for years it is one of the number one rules that if it is too good to be real it probably isn't and I had a very knowledgeable person once tell me, If it wasn't then-it probably isn't now. Meaning, something that is only known in recent times probably isn't old. I own 2 they are beautiful marbles but I am not spending big money on them. Until some one shows me some in original packaging or some very clear pictures of some taken before 1990.

Galen this and Galen that...all over this board...and all I can find is that he is a flim-flam-man! Did you get your clear pictures or original packaging? Don't say you didn't have any to look at with your Hubble Telescope cause you say you have 2. You continue to saw off your own legs and believe/trust me ...people see it! C'mon back-trackin-willy....start bull crapping some more reasons...ya know...how old you are....get confused...bad pics.....tired.....and the list goes on an on

You had won...no more damage control for you and Craig....but you have to poke!

You just don't know when to shut up.....you shut up when tangled in your own web but come out to rub dirt in the eyes of people who care...thought you was going to enjoy their beauty? Now, we will see..I'm going to ring every bell and scream from the top of every mountain to let it be known!

Steph, I beg you not to delete or remove..or lock up this thread..this needs to be seen! again, IMHO! MON

I agree Galen has always had a lot to say... So get on with it my friend.... What do you know and if you don't know then your marbles may just may be modern. Don't dance around the subject!

[Shamrock Marbles]

Yes -- I can see why thoughtful speculation could see the exotics as color compatibility tests, and the thoughts that can follow from that . . . very, very interesting.

And it's been a while since I spent an evening with my (2 cobalt, 2 amber, 2 colorless) guinea halves. It was much more educational this time. Saw exactly what you were talking about with the frit at the edge. And the over-gathering . . .

Yes, bubbles. Under 10X very tiny ones, not in clumps or trails, but distributed singly here and there in the clear base. Had to experiment with backlighting to see them, especially in the cobalt halves (one of which is pretty fractured), but once I did I had no trouble identifying them in the others. One of the cobalt halves also had what looked under magnification like a huge bubble, but when I took the loupe away it was a bit smaller than the head of the proverbial pin.

Also looked for and found similar tiny bubbles (and a few big ones) in my CAC slags. From the same process, maybe? Minus the frit, I mean? Fun to see new things in old marbles!

Ann,

The "bubbles" I am referring to is basically a single bubble near the core of the marble fragment.

I was curious if you found a bubble in the plural sense.

That is, a single large bubble in two or more fragments.

This bubble is a bubble half (section), kind of like Mon's.

4 out of 5 guinea fragments in my possession have bubbles and the fracture planes bi-sect the bubble.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon, Ann and Others,

Back in Post #166 and toward the end of my ramblings, I stated:

"Finally, I want to point out Howard Jenkin's patent 1,596,879.

This invention incorporates a shearing device unlike his previous patent.

This device sits atop the machine and has two counter rotating arms with blades on the ends.

(I call this the "helicopter" shear.)

Above this shear is an arm with a "target" ring for the gatherer to deliver his gob.

The helicopter shear makes two revolutions per forming roller set.

Now use your imagination, but don't think too hard...

The gathering boy has a gob at the end of his punty.

He positions the punty end over the delivery ring and lowers the rod.

The hot gather starts to drop and the helicopter shear "nips" the leading edge of the gob.

The gob drops further and the helicopter shear severs the gob from the body of glass/punty on the next pass.

Down it drops into the marble machine to be formed.

One gather -- two shear marks.

The "first" shear mark is smooth, because there was enough heat at the time of cut to allow it to blend in.

The "second" shear mark is more pronounced (visually and with fingernail), because time had elapsed and the surface cooled."

---

I used the word "nip" and what I mean is that a very small amount of glass was removed from the gather.

It is more like a finger nail clipping.

There are a few (or many) CA marbles that exhibit a loop (or circular) pattern on the sides with a small/smooth cut-line and a larger/rough cut-line.

Here is an example:

(From MarbleAlans auctions. For educational purposes only.)

This marble also has quite a few features that make it very interesting.

Road and Tunnel feature.

Possibly unmelted silica sand particles.

Guinea elements at one pole.

Forget those, I want you to look at the top left view.

In that view, you can see the "smooth" cut-line.

Now look at the top right view.

In that view, you can see the "rough" cut-line.

Back to the top left view.

Notice that the "smooth" cut-line is "short".

Over to the top right.

Notice the "rough" cut-line is "long".

So long, that it goes out of view.

You can see it continue past the "tunnel" in the bottom left view.

The first cut-line is "smooth/short".

I want to call this a nip-line.

Why, because there was never enough preceding mass of material to sever and form into anything (let alone a marble).

The second cut-line is "rough/long".

It is this thermal witness mark, from which the gob was severed from the punty.

----

Everyone remember high school geology?

Think about a side view of a rock formation and you can see the layers.

Imagine a fault line running vertically and how the layers shifted.

You can still follow the layers from either side of the fault line.

Here are some illustrations:

Now, go back up to the marble image and look at the top left view.

Imagine the nip-line ("smooth/short") as the fault line.

You see, the shearing mechanism severed a small amount of glass off.

While doing so, it shifted the glass pattern.

Left side down and right side up.

Can you match the lines back up?

Go look through Alan's pictures in the gallery and see if you can identify others with this "fault line" effect.

http://marbleconnection.com/gallery/album/289-christensen-agates-cacs-by-marblealan-mostly/

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[hdesousa]

John,

Does this same effect not occur when you make two snips (a nip and a cut) off the molten glass at the end of your rod as the glob drops into your machine?

Hansel

[Shamrock Marbles]

John,

Does this same effect not occur when you make two snips (a nip and a cut) off the molten glass at the end of your rod as the glob drops into your machine?

Hansel

Hansel,

If your question is, "John, have your done this nip and cut into your machine?", then my answer is, "Yes. Yes, I have."

Part of Alan's samples (circa 2004) were made using the nip-and-cut.

You can see some of the marbles in the photo and match up color lines on either side of the nip.

Somewhere buried in a box are those nips.

I held onto them as an interesting artifact.

Why did I do this?

I was trying to figure out why some cut lines differed.

What had me puzzled was a marble on page 115 of Bob Block's book (top three pictures).

Top left view shows a beautiful loop and a single cut line (at 5:30).

Middle right view shows the other side of the marble with a cut-line at 5:30 and a pattern disruption at 10:00.

Bottom left view has what I call the nip-line. This line extends to 3:00 where the pattern disruption is in the other view.

What was missing was the full on view of the other cut-line.

Here is another photo of the same marble:

(Photo from Marble Alan Ebay auctions. For educational purposes only.)

This photo shows both the nip-line (top left) and the cut-line (top right).

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mibstified]

So a single cut line (single seam) mib would (or could) have been processed the same way except without the initial "nip", timing the glob drop to start falling just after a passing shear blade? Trying to visualize...... If you had a singnificant volume of glass on the punty, you could get maybe 2, 3 or more marbles from the same hand gathered glob, with the first one singe a seam or nip/cut mib and the ensuing mibs full doulbe seamers?

[lstmmrbls]

Mon, Where is the Flim Flaming going on??? No one that currently has any of these marbles and selling them is making a profit IMO. (lots of folks have taken a huge loss in selling theirs the in last few years. There haven't been any brought out it quite some time that were part of the original find (or manufacture) for those that think they are new. So there isn't anyone that I know of currently making money selling these things. As for my original posts I have changed my mind After years of studying them I have leaned way toward the side that they are Old, Again I have no proof so that is why I say "I believe". Maybe someday I will think in another way but for now "I believe they are old" Thats all no big deal and I certainly have no want to keep rehashing the subject. Maybe in another 10 years we can do it all over again. I paid 20,000 for the last CAC collection I bought and it contained quite a few of these marbles. If I did not believe they were real and vintage I probably wouldn't have made the purchase. I probably could not sell any of them for a profit. I like them. Thats all, and am just trying to enjoy them for their beauty. You continue on and on like there is some big conspiracy going on. There just isn't anything more than some folks that think they are real and some that do not. At this point in time it seems the ones that believe they are real have more to go with than those that do not IMO. I can't believe I keep letting myself get sucked back in here. (LOL)

[mon]

Mon, Where is the Flim Flaming going on???

Sorry folks for all the redundancy but Galen has asked:

Exotic...Fact, not a name used ever by you........posts in your own words say different....flim flam

Exotic...Fact, no serious CAC collectors use that name..... posts in your own words say different....flim flam

Exotic...Never a known group of marbles.....posts in your own words say different....flim flam

Smart guy told you if it's to good blah, blah....nothing has changed because you have no facts....you had 2 exotics at that time....flim flam

Need pics before 1990 to change your mind.....you still don't have any...flim flam

Need original packaging to change your mind....you still don't have any.....flim flam

I don't know what an Exotic is....posts in your own words say different....flim flam

Never said they were fake......said that about mine.... same pic and now they are bad ass....flim flam

Alan valued them greatly and had many at the end.....just not true as stated by more that one....flim flam

Stating nothing will change our minds.....crap....flim flam

But your statement about being lucky enough to have talked with the guys who found them must be the biggest flim flam....and you avoid, duck and dive and flat out ignore the only thing that raised the flag of hope (for me at least). flim flam

I would have a much harder time trying to find something, anything that you've said having an ounce of truth. flim flam

No one that currently has any of these marbles and selling them is making a profit IMO. (lots of folks have taken a huge loss in selling theirs the in last few years.

Did anyone say they are making a profit? Also, what do you know about what was spent and what was received? flim flam

There haven't been any brought out it quite some time that were part of the original find (or manufacture) for those that think they are new.

Desertbern & mike-vicky has sold quite a few in the last 6 months.... flim flam

So there isn't anyone that I know of currently making money selling these things. As for my original posts I have changed my mind After years of studying them I have leaned way toward the side that they are Old, Again I have no proof so that is why I say "I believe".

Proof...that's what we are searching for.....Visual evidence that they were made on original Cac machines.....please share this in private with John M if need be, that's called being helpful..

Maybe someday I will think in another way but for now "I believe they are old" Thats all no big deal and I certainly have no want to keep rehashing the subject.

Why? You have yet to bring anything to the table IMHO! You don't want this to be narrowed down one iota?

Maybe in another 10 years we can do it all over again.

Not me....I see what I'm up against and it does not impress me in this political hobby that I wish had merit!

I paid 20,000 for the last CAC collection I bought and it contained quite a few of these marbles. If I did not believe they were real and vintage I probably wouldn't have made the purchase. I probably could not sell any of them for a profit. I like them. Thats all, and am just trying to enjoy them for their beauty. You continue on and on like there is some big conspiracy going on. There just isn't anything more than some folks that think they are real and some that do not. At this point in time it seems the ones that believe they are real have more to go with than those that do not IMO. I can't believe I keep letting myself get sucked back in here. (LOL)

If you click your ruby slippers and say this three times, it may come true! I will say it again, I don't know...I would like it narrowed down, if not solved. I've learned a lot about things that has been shared.....it has changed my mind on some things forever......but all you can see is a burden, sucked back in...and that my friend is why you get caught at times, making it up as you go. imho

Then, you just had to state against my thoughts of how to get more involved and pressure......a smoke screen of hollow confidence as to what effect this will have on future trading and sales. We will have to wait and see!

I'll not apologize for the effort of thought in trying to learn the truth of "the find". It is one of the main hurdles in believing these are true. Craig and yourself claim to have crossed that barrier and wish not to tell. mon

[1Alleynut]

In response to Ann's German Striped transparent, heres a few pics showing both sides of the same marbles, front and back, the open as aposed to closed seam, Ive never heard the remark before that they are not considered striped transparent due to them only having 1 color instead of multipul colored striping, and yes it would apear that they are similar to MK without much interior action, however many do have fiberous threads streching from pole to pole while others are very clear, some also having a large white interior glob, I just grabed these few for examples, its fairly easy to distinguish them from their Cac counterparts. They also can get twisted up into various different configurations looking quite abit different than these. DB.

[ann]

Nice ones, Dave!

[ann]

Ann,

The "bubbles" I am referring to is basically a single bubble near the core of the marble fragment.

I was curious if you found a bubble in the plural sense.

That is, a single large bubble in two or more fragments.

This bubble is a bubble half (section), kind of like Mon's.

4 out of 5 guinea fragments in my possession have bubbles and the fracture planes bi-sect the bubble.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

Oh, those bubbles!

Yes -- 4 of my 6 halves each has the "crater" remnant of a big more-or-less central bubble. Two of them have some kind of darkish cinder-y-looking material in them, but that could be from their subsequent burial. Probably is.

The fracture planes bisect the bubbles, as you describe - - -